Big_Campfire

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/the_gates.JPG" width="400" height="400" alt="Black and white illustration of two coiled dragons, a flower, and a rainbow, titled The Gates by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> =><= ''In the distance, you see the glow of a campfire. Smoke rising. Figures gathered. You begin to walk closer.'' -----HOW TO PLAY----- <= 1. This is a text-based conversational game. Controls are simple. Scroll down to read the text. When you are offered a choice, which will be in different-coloured text, simply click on the action you would like to take. 2. When a conversation has come to a natural end point, you will be invited to speak with others around the fire, or sometimes to continue the conversation further. If you do not want to initiate another conversation at that time, you can say goodbye and leave from the campfire. No individual conversation is very long, and you can have as many conversations as you like. 3. CONTENT WARNING - Some of the themes discussed may be sensitive or triggering. Your emotional response is respected. It is fine to leave at any time. 4. You can exit the game quickly at any point, by simply closing your browser or tab. =><= --- <= All responses are the unedited, verbatim words of Greenham Women, from interviews conducted as part of the project "Greenham Women Everywhere". You can find out more about this from the link below, or when you leave if you don't like spoilers. Whether you know who the Greenham Women are as you approach, or whether they are strangers to you, you are welcome at the warmth of the fire. These are real conversations. There is no save or return, there is no "back", there is no index. This is now. =><= ---- <= ''A little way ahead, you can see the campfire. Closer now.'' [[Take a seat around the campfire.|Campfire]] [[Find out more about the Greenham Women.|Find out more about Greenham Women.]] [[Leave.|Credits]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/campfire_image_kayleigh_hilsdon_inverted.jpg" width="480" height="480" alt="Black and white illustration of a Campfire with moon, sun, smoke and a raining cloud, titled Legacy by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> =><= ''You are sitting at a campfire, with seven Greenham Women.'' ------/XX\------ In the drifting smoke and low fireside flicker, you cannot clearly make them out. Speak with them, and you will see them clearer through their words. ------/XX\------ Who would you like to speak with? [[Carole Stuart McIvor|Carole Stuart McIver]] [[Carolyn Barnes]] [[Di McDonald]] [[Pixie Taylor]] [[Sian Jones]] [[Zohl dé Ishtar|Zohl de Ishtar]] ------/XX\------ [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Find out more about the Greenham Women you are speaking with.|Find out more about Greenham Women.]] [[Say goodbye, and leave the campfire.|Credits]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/women_only_space.jpg" width="400" height="400" alt="Black and white illustration of a wreath of sinuous branches, strung with fine, strong cobwebs, titled Women Only Space by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> Forty years ago, women around the UK descended on Berkshire in beautiful indignation, beginning an extensive campaign of non-violent actions against nuclear weapons being stored on Greenham Common. They created an exclusively female space - Greenham Women's Peace Camp - and thrived together, pushing those watching to question war, sexual orientation, and gender roles. Their stories inspired tens of thousands of women around the world - Let their stories inspire you. All responses are the unedited, verbatim words of Greenham Women, from interviews conducted as part of the project "Greenham Women Everywhere". Find out more about the women you are speaking with around this campfire: [[Carole Stuart McIvor|Carole Stuart McIver Info]] [[Carolyn Barnes|Carolyn Barnes Info]] [[Di McDonald|Di McDonald Info]] [[Pixie Taylor|Pixie Taylor Info]] [[Sian Jones|Sian Jones Info]] [[Zohl dé Ishtar|Zohl de Ishtar Info]] Now.. [[Take a seat around the campfire|Campfire]] [[Return to the introduction|Welcome]] [[Leave the campfire, and view the credits|Credits]] Leave the campfire, and visit the Greenham Women Everwhere Website: <a href="http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/">http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/</a>

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/motherhood.JPG" width="400" height="400" alt="Black and white illustration of an anatomical heart, wreathed in dandelion heads, some seeds blowing away, titled Motherhood by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> ''You walk away from the campfire, and you are welcome to return.'' All responses are the unedited words of Greenham Women Carole Stuart McIvor, Carolyn Barnes, Di McDonald, Pixie Taylor, Sian Jones, and Zohl dé Ishtar. Interviews were conducted by Vanessa Pini, Tricia Grace-Norton, Emma Gliddon, and Jill Raymond (Ray) . Transcription by Josie Argyle. The campfire was conceived, designed and created by L H Trevail. =><= ------/XX\------ [[Return, and take your seat at the Campfire|Campfire]] ------/XX\------ <= Illustrations: “Legacy” "Motherhood", "NVDA", "The Gates" and "Women Only Space", by Kayleigh Hilsdon. "Greenham Women" by Jacky Fleming. Photographs of Greenham Women from the GWE archive, with treatment by LHTrevail. If you know who took these original photographs, please get in touch, as we would love to add credits for them. Songs: "Tomorrow" written by Peggy Seeger, performed by Alice Robinson. "Shall There be Womanly Times" written by Frankie Armstrong, performed by Chloë Clarke. "We Are a Gentle Angry Women" written by Holly Near, performed by Carleen Anderson. "Which Side Are you On?" original melody by Florence Reece, lyrics adapted by Greenham Women, performed by Jenny and Flo Crowe. "The Opposition", written by Margot Random, performed by Deborah Tracey. "Carry Greenham Home", written and performed by Peggy Seeger. =><= ------/XX\------ [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] ------/XX\------ <= Web Support: Scary Little Girls - Ampersand Industries Greenham Women Everywhere - JKC Marketing Accessibility Consultant: Chloë Clarke Scary Little Girls Support: Vanessa Pini Becky Barry Christina Li Becky John at 92 Minutes Further Reading: Other Girls Like Me by Stephanie Davis Greenham Voices: An Anecdotal History of Greenham Common Women’s Peace Camp by Kate Kerrow and Rebecca Mordan Walking to Greenham by Ann Pettitt Greenham Common: Women at the Wire by Barbara Harford and Sarah Hopkins Orange Gate Journal by Ginette Leach =><= ------/XX\------ [[Find out more about the Greenham Women around this Campfire.|Find out more about Greenham Women.]] ------/XX\------ <= Commissioned by Scary Little Girls, for Greenham Women Everywhere. Greenham Women Everywhere is funded by Heritage Lottery South West. Read full interviews and others, and find out more about the women you have been speaking with, here: <a href="http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/oral-testimonies/">http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/oral-testimonies/</a>. Greenham Women Everwhere Site: <a href="http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/">http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/</a> Scary Litte Girls Site: <a href="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/">https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/</a> =><= ------/XX\------ <= <img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/slg-logo2-300x181.png" width="300" height="181" alt="Scary Little Girls Logo, white on black: The words Scary Little Girls in an elegant font."> <img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/HeritageFundEnglish_logo_white.png" width="400" height="200" alt="Heritage Fund Logo, white on black - the words Heritage Fund, and an image of a hand with its fingers crossed for luck."> <img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/ACEgrand_jpeg_white.jpg" width="600" height="200" alt="Arts Council England Logo, white on black - the words Supported Using Public Funding Arts Council by England, with Arts Council England in a little circle to the left hand side. "> <img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/thumbnail_greenham_boltCutter.png" width="300" height="300" alt="Greenham Women Everywhere Logo, white on green. A green circle with the words Greenham Women Everywhere in bold white capital letters. In the centre of the circle, in white cut-out, a Greenham Woman with bolt cutters, looking over her shoulder, and looking mighty cool.">

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/nvda.JPG" width="400" height="400" alt="Black and white illustration of a wreath of flowers and bolt cutters, titled NVDA by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> =><= ''Which song shall we sing?'' ------/XX\------ <= [["The Opposition", written by Margot Random, performed by Deborah Tracey.|"The Opposition", from the GWE archive, performed by Deborah Tracey.]] [["Shall There be Womanly Times", written by Frankie Armstrong, performed by Chloë Clarke.]] [["Tomorow", written by Peggy Seeger, introduced and performed by Alice Robinson.|"Tomorow", written by Peggy Seeger, performed by Alice Robinson.]] [["Which Side Are you On?", original melody by Florence Reece, lyrics adapted by Greenham Women, performed by Jenny and Flo Crowe.]] [["We Are a Gentle Angry Women", by Holly Near, performed by Carleen Anderson.]] [["Carry Greenham Home", written and performed by Peggy Seeger.]] =><= ------/XX\------ [[Speak with another woman around the campfire.|Campfire]] [[Leave the campfire, and view the credits.|Credits]]

What would you like to ask Carole Stuart McIvor? [[Could I start by asking you, what brought you to Greenham? How did you become involved in Greenham in the first place?|Carole Stuart McIver Could I start by asking you, what brought you to Greenham? How did you become involved in Greenham in the first place?]] [[Can you tell me a little bit about the art at Greenham?|Absolutely. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the art at Greenham. So do you have memories like - you've spoken briefly about singing, about singing and banners and artwork and poetry? How does that all link in to Greenham?]]

It's a long time ago. I mean, it's a really long time ago. I'd just come out of care. I was in care. And I got a job at the Fabian Society, in their bookshop. And I was sitting in Servers Square having my lunch. And I saw a newspaper I think, must be an Evening Standard. And it said something about a rainbow bomb. And I remember thinking that is really obscene, you know - the rainbows, you know, make a rainbow bomb. And I rang up CND and asked what was going on. And they said, 'Oh, there's a coach going to Greenham on Saturday.’ So I was 16. I didn't know anybody. And I said, ‘Okay, book me on the coach’, which they did. And I went to Greenham - told my Mum I'd be back that night. And then the, the police came along, said ‘Time to clear the..', you know, ‘the gate now.’ And some of the guys there said, ‘Well, we're not going.’ And I said, ‘Why aren't you going?’ They told me why they weren't going so I thought ‘I'm not going either.’ [[Listen quietly..|Carole Stuart McIver Could I start 2]] [[So you stayed?|Carole Stuart McIver Could I start 2]] [[Where were you in care?|Care Oh, right.]]

So I stayed overnight. And, and then - the cuddling down in a sleeping bag with a guy called Tim, I think. And he ended up editing a radical newspaper in a couple of years - I can't remember it’s name. And the next morning, a furniture van arrived and the police said ‘You either move or we're going to arrest you.’ And I remember thinking ‘That's a bit pushy and it's quite important.’ So I just sat there and was taken to Reading Jail - I'd read Oscar Wilde it wasn't quite how I'd imagined Reading Jail to be. [[Keep listening quietly..|Carole Stuart McIver Could I start 3]] [[You went to jail straight away?|Carole Stuart McIver Could I start 3]]

And then we, I think we came yes, we came up into the magistrates, Newbury magistrates on Monday. And they said that they were going to, I had to be bound over to keep peace. And I refused to give my name and my date of birth, and I refused to be bound over. And there was nothing they could do. I mean, they obviously knew I was a bit on the young side. So that's how I spent my first week in Holloway. [[You spent a week in Holloway at the age of 16?|Carole Stuart McIver And spent a week in holiday, Holloway at the age of 16?]] [[The first time you were at Greenham, what year was that?|Carole Stuart McIver So the first time you were at Greenham, because you talked about Helen Allegranza being in Holloway so what year was that?]]

Yeah, which is really unusual. I remember looking over the balcony with a Vicar's daughter called Alison. I was saying ‘I didn't know they had men in Holloway.’ She said, ‘Oh, they're not men they're lesbians.’ And I didn't like to ask, because it seemed a bit stupid, because everybody nodded wise, I didn't know what they were talking about. I think Helen Allegranza was down there. And Pat Arrowsmith, people I met years later. And then when they came back in court, after a week, my Mum had sent my sort of, then sort of boyfriend who worked at The Economist with her. And he paid the fine and I was furious. So that was, yeah, that was my first first encounter with Greenham. And then years - and then I married my barrister from, from that action at Greenham, and had three children. And I was at Tenby on holiday, and must be 19, beginning of the 1980s. And we'd been out on the beach all day. And I was looking out the window at night. And there was nobody on the beach. There was no kids. There was no laughter there was no dogs, there was no sound of any-thing. And I was doing a postgraduate teaching degree. And I thought ‘What the fuck is the point of teaching history when there might not be any history?’ And I sat down that night and wrote to the university and said, ‘I'm leaving.’ So I'm going to leave college, but I'm going to go to Greenham. And I did. [[So the first time you were at Greenham, what year was that?|Carole Stuart McIver So the first time you were at Greenham, because you talked about Helen Allegranza being in Holloway so what year was that?]] [[So you were talking about being - talking about there not being any history, so kind of ending your teaching degree?|Carole Stuart McIver So what brought you back to Greenham? What - so you were talking, you were talk-ing about being - talking about there not being any history, so kind of ending your teaching degree?]]

Must be in 1960, ’61 or ’62? Yeah, really early 60s. [[Really really early. Yeah.|Carole Stuart McIver Really really early. Yeah.]] [[I didnt realise that actions actually took place at Greenham that early.|Wow. Okay. So I don't know if I'd realised it, but I mean, I knew there were the actual, you know, the big walk and the action, at Trafalgar square but I don't know if I'd real-ised that actions actually took place at Greenham that early]]

Yeah. [[I didnt realise that actions actually took place at Greenham that early.|Wow. Okay. So I don't know if I'd realised it, but I mean, I knew there were the actual, you know, the big walk and the action, at Trafalgar square but I don't know if I'd real-ised that actions actually took place at Greenham that early]] [[So what brought you back to Greenham? What - so you were talking, you were talking about being - talking about there not being any history, so kind of ending your teaching degree?|Carole Stuart McIver So what brought you back to Greenham? What - so you were talking, you were talk-ing about being - talking about there not being any history, so kind of ending your teaching degree?]]

I don't know how many there were or whether that was just a random sort of action but yeah, it was certainly an issue already. Yeah. The Committee of 100 were concerned about it so. [[So what brought you back to Greenham? What - so you were talking, you were talking about being - talking about there not being any history, so kind of ending your teaching degree?|Carole Stuart McIver So what brought you back to Greenham? What - so you were talking, you were talk-ing about being - talking about there not being any history, so kind of ending your teaching degree?]] [[Did you go straight back to Greenham?|Then, did you go straight back to Greenham then?]]

Yeah. [[Then, did you go straight back to Greenham then?|Then, did you go straight back to Greenham then?]] [[What were the relationships like with the local residents of Newbury when you were at Greenham? What was your experience of them?|Amazing place to be. What were the relationships like with the local residents of Newbury when you were at Greenham? What was your experience of them?]]

No, I sort of rang up, found out what was going on and it was Embrace the Base. [[Yes.|Yes.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Yes.]]

And I knew that in - some of the women have gone from Wales, but I didn't, I didn't know them. I hadn't gone, hadn't gone on the walk. But when I saw Embrace the Base I thought, ‘Right I’ll go again.’ Rang up, got the coach, and went on Embrace the Base and sort of what you described, really, you suddenly found yourself holding hands with 1000s, literally 1000s of women. And it was - you just knew it was a moment and that if we didn’t… And we all - people had pictures of their kids and their grandchildren up on the… And it was, it was wonderful. It was also heartbreaking. Because it, we knew that it was really serious. It was at the height of the Cold War, and it could happen. And then we, you know, we went into the Cuba crisis, you know, the following year, and we knew it really could happen. And people were talking, sorry. [[No, no, go on. |No, no, go on. ]] [[Keep listening quietly..|No, no, go on. ]]

People were talking about a big action in, on New Year's Day. And I thought, ‘Yeah, I could that. No, there's no good just sort of turning up. If I'm really se-rious about this, I need to be really serious about it.’ So I went back, and it was, it was a big decision. And I, you know, I have tremendous guilt about it, because I left my kids. And my Mum, you know, I left my kids with my Mum, but I left them all on Christmas Eve. And my Professor Gwen Williams, drove me up. Looked terrified at all the women, dropped me and drove off. And it was it was an odd experience because the women were all sitting around the fire, but they were quite cool. Not in a cool way, but in a little bit frosty way. Nobody said hello or anything. And months later, one of the women said to me, ‘Oh, if I'd have known you were a friend of my,’ I won't name her, ‘my friend, we’d have you know, we'd have come up and talked to you.’ And I thought, ‘well fuck that. That shouldn't be…’ [[Yeah.|nonono Yeah.]] [[What gate was that? Do you know?|What gate was that? Do you know?]] [[What was the impact on your children of your activism, both positive and negative?|What was the impact on your children of your activism, both positive and negative?]]

You know, that's it. Listen, it was very white, very middle class. And I didn't think you should have to be a friend of a friend really. So I wasn’t.. [[What gate was that? Do you know?|What gate was that? Do you know?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Yeah, yellow was Main Gate. Yeah.]]

Main Gate? Yeah. Green Gate, yeah. Yeah. Yellow Gate, I can't remember, the Main Gate. [[Yeah, yellow was Main Gate. Yeah.|Yeah, yellow was Main Gate. Yeah.]] [[I don't know..|Yeah, yellow was Main Gate. Yeah.]]

Yeah. But it you know, it was Christmas Eve, it was. But then, you know, it was okay. And that's I started to talk to people and heard about the silo action. I thought, ‘Yeah that sounds like a really good idea.’ [[And then, so you took part in the silo action? What happened?|And then, so you took part in the silo action? What happened?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|And then, so you took part in the silo action? What happened?]]

So I went home, still feeling guilty about leaving, I went home to tell them I was going to leave them again. So I obviously didn't feel that much guilt. But I thought the idea of actually trying to prevent work on the silos themselves, I thought it was a really good idea. So I went back. And we planned it. And I re-member thinking at the time we went to - was it Basingstoke? Somewhere quite near, and we brought aluminium ladders. We bought old secondhand carpet. Rebecca contacted, you know, did a wonderful job contacting the press, every single hotel and every breakfast you know it was full of journal-ists and film crews. I just thought they - we’re never going to get away with this. You know, gangs of women buying ladders and journalists you know, we're just never ever going to get away with it. I think one of the things I learned then - never over estimate the intelligence in the British state. Because we turned up just before dawn on New Year's Day, with ladders and old carpets and as many journalists and film crews as you could have fitted in Manchester. And there was no police. There was nobody there, I couldn't believe it. Kate Aidie was standing behind me and I heard her say ‘I think we we're breaking the Official Secrets Act.’ I thought, ‘Yeah, I think you're dead right I think we are breaking the Official Secrets Act.’ And one of the women who went over the fence before me was called Nell Logan, who became a close friend and she was, I, I thought she was older than god in those days. She was 75. And she'd stuffed her, you know, all her clothes and stuff with newspapers to prevent the dogs biting her. And over she went and over I went and over we all went. And then we just ran and then suddenly we saw the lights from a police car. But it was inside the base. It was just amazing that nobody had sussed it really. And we sort of ran up the hill to the top of the silo. And just as - it all sounds so very romantic. Just as the sun started to come up, the dawn started to break, we were on top of the silo holding hands dancing against, anti-clockwise and singing. Then we sat down and then we got wet and then we got arrested. [[Such an iconic image, that picture of you all on the silos and with the police cars in the foreground.|Such an iconic image, that picture of you all on the silos and with the police cars in the foreground.]] [[I can picture it..|Such an iconic image, that picture of you all on the silos and with the police cars in the foreground.]] [[What was the impact on your children of your activism, both positive and negative?|What was the impact on your children of your activism, both positive and negative?]]

Yes, yeah. We got, can't remember what happened to us - did we get taken? Maybe we were kept in the cells overnight. Do you know I can't remember but eventually we were released. And then we had a big court case I think in Newbury, where Liz Woodcraft was an incredible barrister, wonderful woman. And, you know, lots of people from all over the world gave - I think, Professor Alice Stewart gave evidence. People gave incredible evidence, it was really powerful. And we got found guilty. Packed into a riot van and everybody, lots of people complained about being put in a riot van. And I just could never see the reason for the complaint. Because if you threaten the, you know, the big-gest financial deals in history, then you're a fucking terrorist and you should be treated like a terrorist. You know, what would they have done? ‘Okay, girls, you've made your point you know go home.' That would be much more insulting than the riot van I think. But I'm quite, I'm quite small. And I couldn't see out the window properly. So I balanced up on the seat, and then they slammed the brakes on. And I must have hit the wall. And then I don't really remember anything until we got to Hollaway. But when I got into Hollaway, I started being really sick. One of the the prisoners who were already there sort of said ‘She needs to see a doctor.’ I think the doctor came and gave me a great dollop of phenobarbitone. But I was clearly concussed. And somebody wrote, a journalist wrote a piece in the New Statesman. So I then saw the doctor. They stopped giving me phenobarbitone. But going to prison hospital in those days was a real - I mean, it was horrific it was just, women who lost their babies there. And doctors who really were not being nice. No, it was - the old Hollaway was horrific. But the new Hollaway it was more horrific in a different way. It was less human. It was, it was unkinder, I think. [[Yeah.|Holloway Yeah.]] [[How long were you there?|Holloway Yeah.]]

So I think we got two weeks I think. [[That's interesting. You seeing the prison in the early 60s and in the early 80s.|That's interesting. You seeing the prison in the early 60s and in the early 80s.]] [[That's interesting, seeing the difference between two stays in prison..|That's interesting, seeing the difference between two stays in prison..]] [[When you came out of Holloway, what made you decide to stay, so how long did you stay at Greenham for?|when you came out of Holloway, what made you decide to stay, so how long did you stay at Greenham for?]]

Yeah. [[Seeing the difference between two stays.|That's interesting, seeing the difference between two stays in prison..]] [[When you came out of Holloway, what made you decide to stay, so how long did you stay at Greenham for?|when you came out of Holloway, what made you decide to stay, so how long did you stay at Greenham for?]]

I think the second time was worse. Because everybody said it must have been awful in the old one. I mean, it was it was more gothic. They gave you a bath and you know the bath was the size of the Thames, but it was I didn't think it was as unkind as the new Hollaway, you know to women. [[When you came out of Holloway, what made you decide to stay, so how long did you stay at Greenham for?|when you came out of Holloway, what made you decide to stay, so how long did you stay at Greenham for?]] [[What happened next?|when you came out of Holloway, what made you decide to stay, so how long did you stay at Greenham for?]]]]

Well, once I'd done the.. These things, gather their own momentum don't they. I mean we came out of that, I mean, those funny things in Holloway. I remember the women protested outside trying to climb in - which of course the other prisoners thought was hilarious. They were used to people breaking out but breaking in was a bit different. And we were taken to, I think it was the Old Bailey for something about evictions and bailiffs to - and instead we formed a circle in the Old Bailey and we tried the judge and found the judge guilty. So that was, you know, quite busy in there. [[You tried.. you say you tried the judge?|What did that look like? You tried it - you say you tried the judge? How - can you just talk us through exactly what that looks like?]] [[When you got out, what did it look like, the rest of your time with Greenham?|When you got out, what did it look like, the rest of your time with Greenham?]]

It was it was outside the main courtroom. I think we all sat down in a big circle, block, blocked the corridor. And I can't remember what we found guilty for, but I gather we did. But when we came out of Hollaway after the fortnight, there was, we had no idea what an impact the silo action had had. And the images have gone all around the world we had, you know, we had no idea. And there were loads of, you know, camera crews and reporters and stuff outside, and that sort of gathered it's own momentum - what are you going to do next? So we had to, you know, we had to think what we were going to do next. I can't know what we did next immediately. But it sort of led to the American court case, you know? [[Yeah.|American yeah]] [[American court case?|American yeah]]

I think it depended on what was going on. Because I had, you know, I had sort of, well I was supposed to have had domestic responsibilities you wouldn't guess actually. I think when, when there was an action, that we'd go up, you know, the, the Welsh women would go up in their, in a group. And they, they wanted somebody to go - there was going to be a summit, Reagan went to a summit in Geneva. And they wanted women to go to that. So it's again, the Welsh women we went over to Geneva. I think Julie Christie paid for it. I don't know if that's just a myth. But we went over to Geneva and stayed in John Berger's flat in Geneva. Sadly, John Berger wasn't there. But, it’s, it all went well. And we just did the usual talks and protests and stuff like that. But then we put the sort of iconic flower clock in the middle of Geneva. And we got a big sheet and we made a clock to fit over it that said five minutes to midnight. And the police didn't like that. So they arrested us, took us to the airport. And my experience of the police in Britain on the whole if you talk to them you know, they're pretty good. They will listen to you, but the police, the - especially the airport police in Geneva, we were taken into the chief of police's room. And he had a big calendar up on the wall with a woman with no bra on and it was, it was really offensive, you know, even by pornographic calendar standard. And so he left us in there and there was a large black marker pen on his desk, and I thought I'd leave a message about it. But he came in as I was doing it and grabbed me by the neck and held me down on the… And he, I really thought he was gonna, to… the other women sort of jumped up, but. Yeah, he had my head in the crux of his arm and he just closed his arm on my neck. But that's the only time really I've had any real violence from the police. And they drove us in a blue flashing light van to the aircraft. And the aircraft was waiting. It was one of those really posh ones where people pay a fortune, it was full of businessmen. They put us right in the back. And when we were up in the air, the - one of the guys with the trolley comes down the back. And he said ‘Oh this is from our friend.’ Looked at the trolley and it had champagne. And smoked salmon and sort of crusty bread. We thought god that looks good for somebody. And it was a present from the pilots and the crew. If you're going to get deported get deported from Switzerland! We got back. It was, it was we could hear the news of us coming back over the tannoy so you know, obviously made - and you sort of realise then that you don't have you know, if you do things they do get reported, mostly. Unless you're Boris Johnson, of course and then they don't. [[Yes.|Boris Johnson Yes.]] [[What happened next?|Boris Johnson Yes.]]

Supreme Court, so and people used to say well why don't you.. [[Keep listening quietly..|So you went over to America to New York for that 2]] [[So you went over to America to New York for that?|So you went over to America to New York for that?]]

People used to say, why don't you try the, you know, the law use the law. So we thought, okay, we will try the law. Which we did, I think, I don't know how many plaintiffs or - and when I went, I said to my kids, and my Mum, ‘This one's okay, we're the plaintiffs. We won't get locked up’, you know, ‘I promise you, there’s', you know, ‘there'll be no prison involved.’ And I really believed that. But there was an interesting - I won't call it a split I'll call it a dichotomy - in the thinking of the group that went over there, both the lawyers and the plaintiffs. And one of the things that we were offered was money to buy proper clothes, you know, a set of clothes, so we could meet Senators. And some of us, you know particularly the Welsh contingent, reckoned that we, you know, we really didn't want to dress up to meet Senators. So, they needed to meet us as who we were. That was the first split. And then there was a sort of, we were divided, and we were sent on. Sorry, we were sent on lecture tours. And mine was sort of, I think, I gave a lecture at Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Harvard, you know, places like that. But one of my fellow speakers was Weinberger. And he looked as though he'd been dead for years, his hair was all blue. It was weird. And that was that there was a weird thing as well, it was almost the kings touch, you know, that Greenham Women are sort of, somehow that special that people would touch you in the street. And that was, that was kind of weird. And I remember seeing the Tom Paine Memorial Centre. And in one, at one level, you, you know one could see that you were in the, in the line of radical protesters, but it was. I don't know. I didn't like the celebrity stuff, I guess. And then - I understand it's very useful. And I do under-stand that, but it depends what you do with it, because you shouldn't let it go to your head, I guess. So some of us felt that - I mean, we had the first part of the court case, and one of the Welsh women was thrown out for breastfeeding her baby in court. And outside there was sort of shops and sort of porn shots of pictures of women with their tits hanging out or, you know, but she got thrown out for breastfeeding her baby. So it was sort of split up then, and went on these lecture tours, that those of us who felt a bit strongly about it, decided that if they did site Cruise Missiles while in the adjournment, we'd go back to the United Nations and chain ourselves to the United Nations. And the buggers did site Cruise Missiles while we were in that adjournment week. So we went, we went back, met at the UN and met some American women, and we all chained ourselves together and got arrested. And my son, my eldest son was at London School of Economics at the time. And I promised them all that we wouldn't get arrested and he was watching the news in the common room. He saw these red boots with yellow laces going into the back of a van. Seemingly he turned to his friends, 'That's my Mum.’ And it was. So we, we drove into, into New York in this police van. And I don't know what it is about their use of the brake, but they slammed the brake on. The door flew open, we all jumped out all chained together. We were dancing through the rush hour traffic all chained together. And they caught us again. But yeah that was good fun. And we went into the central holding centre. And the police women were really apologetic about having to sort of strip search us. And they understood what, you know, why we were doing what we were doing. And we were in this sort of hamster cage overnight with loads of other women. And, you know, that was, god that was an education itself. Because a lot of the women had been in there because they'd had sex with guys. And the guys had paid them for sex. And they arrested them because the guys they'd had sex with were police men. And I think I must have been a bit naive at the time because I was really shocked by that. But there was a woman who taught us how to play backgammon or something so gambled through the night. And got chucked out the next day, sent back to Britain to deal with the fact that you know Cruise Missiles were actually now sited in Britain. [[When you got back, what did it look like, the rest of your time with Greenham?|When you got out, what did it look like, the rest of your time with Greenham?]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIvor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. [[Keep listening quietly..|So you went over to America to New York for that 2]] [[What happened?||So you went over to America to New York for that 2]]

We sort of went, we went on from there we did… We did lots of stuff. We did lots of stuff in Wales. And I remember, I should have written all the notes down at least I'd have remembered what we'd done. [[So are you from Wales?|So are you from Wales?]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I'm from Scotland. [[From Scotland, originally?|From Scotland, originally?]] [[You talked early on about leaving care. Were you in care in Scotland or in Wales?| When, because you talked early on about leaving care. So were you in care in Scot-land or in Wales?]]

I've lived in Wales most of my adult life.. Yeah. [[You talked early on about leaving care. Were you in care in Scotland or in Wales?| When, because you talked early on about leaving care. So were you in care in Scot-land or in Wales?]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

No in London. [[Oh, right...|Care Oh, right.]] [[Where in London?|Care Oh, right.]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

East Finchley, I was in the commons in Good Shepherds, for girls who had to be taken into care for their own safety. I lived rough on the streets of London for a week when I was 12 or 13. And managed perfectly well, to be honest. But the convent, the Good Shepherd Convent, was a very different, different place. I remember one of the, well the only teacher, Mother Francesca, looking at us all in the class and saying, ‘You're all tarred with the same brush.’ As though we were the ones, you know, it was our fault that we were there. Yes it was, and it was it was my first introduction to women being punished for being women. We were in St. Joseph's half of the care centre. It was a boarding school. And if you went into the chapel, you could hear the girls in Our Ladies side. We never met them. We never saw them. But you could hear them. Mostly they were unmarried mothers. And babies were taken away from them. And you could hear them. Sometimes they turn the water hoses on. And you could hear them. I've never quite, I don't know what to call it. It was when I moved to next door to a dairy farm in Wales. When they shoot the male calves, the cows make this terrible wailing noise. And that's what those girls made. You could hear when they'd taken the babies away from them. And that's not not something you ever forget - or you should ever forget. But I was made, actually made deputy head girl for a week. But then I refused to stand up for God's Save the Queen on the Queen's birthday. So I lost my badge. But the Mother Superior said we could go and meet our MP. You and the head girl can go and meet your MP. But you'll have to give an undertaking that you won't behave badly. And I couldn't give the undertaking so I wasn't allowed to go. But our MP was Maggie Thatcher. Yeah, but when I was - I came back from being in Holloway when I was 16. I went back to the Fabian Society. My boss called me and and she, she actually said to me, it's very good that you're taking politics seriously. But you must never let it interfere with your work. Years later, I was on a platform with - she was Shirley Williams who has just died. And I reminded her that she told me politics shouldn't interfere with my work. Yeah, it was - how people think that vulnerable kids need to be cared for. I'm not sure, I hope it's changed a lot but I'm not sure it has. [[I think to a certain extent, but still a lot of work to do I think.|I think to a certain extent, but still a lot of work to do I think. ]] [[And where did you go from East Finchley?|So how did you end up in Wales from East Finchley?]]

Yeah. [[And where did you go from East Finchley?|So how did you end up in Wales from East Finchley?]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I got, I got married to my - the guy who was my barrister when I was in Holloway when I was 16, I married him, he was a lawyer. He became a law lecturer. And he got offered a job in Cardiff. So that's why we moved to Cardiff. [[What was the impact on your children of your activism, both positive and negative?|What was the impact on your children of your activism, both positive and negative?]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I've got two sons and a daughter, my daughter has started nursery schools that, that they're sort of taking, taking it one step further, you know, sort of outdoor schools and stuff. But she’s, she's taking it one step further with children based, libertarian in open air, nursery schools, they don't go in-doors at all. [[Amazing.|childrenamazing]] [[Keep listening quietly..|childrenamazing]]

My eldest son is a researcher in the law on disability. My youngest son is one of the lawyers for Grenfell tower. So, you know they've grown up to be people I really respect. [[Absolutely.|childrenAbsolutely.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|childrenAbsolutely.]]

But what it was like at the time is you know, a different question. And my youngest son actually went, made me promise not to listen to it, which I didn't do for years. But I mean, he used to get a hell of a lot of shit at school. Be-cause, you know, I remember doing a radio programme on Peak Welsh Radio, with - what’s his name? Chris, somebody. And he said to me, asked me a question about… can’t remember how he phrased it? I, my answer, was it - it was about lesbianism, and he hadn't told me he was going to ask me - at the camp, and I said, ‘Well, it's better to, isn’t it better to love other women than to kill other people?’ or something like that. But then, of course, the kids got a lot of stick for that, because you know, ‘Your Mum's a dike.’ Which was true by that time anyhow. But, yeah, you know, they're, I think they - I can't answer for them, really. [[Yeah. But they're turned into amazing people so obviously take an influence from you. Massively impressive.|Yeah. But they're turned into amazing people so obviously take an influence from you. Massively impressive.]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I like to think about this when I'm feeling really guilty. Because I do feel guilty because I did get sort of so swept up in it. And I thought if I didn't do it, they'd die. [[Exactly.|childrenexactly]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

You know, it's, we weren't, I don't think we were overreacting at all. [[No not at all.|No not at all.]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And I, you know, the odd thing is I didn’t, the last actually, the last demonstration I went on was about two weeks ago the Kill the Bill. But I went on an Extinction Rebellion one before that. And I've been on a couple of those and nothing's changed. The world is still, really, really in danger. If it's not nuclear weapons, then it's climate change. But it’s time we behaved ourselves as a species. [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think, what was extraordinary is that it became so integral to everyday life, you know, you fried eggs you made a curry, you fried another egg you, you helped with the artwork, or a banner. It was, I think it's how ordinary life should be where art and politics and cooking dinner you know washing, maybe, are all integrated, you know that they’re, they’re not separate things at all. And as a species, we’ve, we've handed over so much control to other people. You know and people say, ‘Oh, you're a socialist.' I'm not socialist, actually. I've always been an Anarchist. I think being brought up as a Catholic actually helps that because it's about taking responsibility yourself. You know, there's no good waiting for somebody else to do something. You can do it with them. That’s, that's excellent. But waiting for other people to do it if you can do it yourself, if you know, if you can't then it's up to other people who can to do it. But yeah, it's interesting because I think if you needed a huge banner or a piece of artwork, it just got done by who wasn't cooking dinner that night. Since there was an assumption that anybody could do anything, and on the whole, anybody could do anything, and probably can do anyhow, you know. [[You had a poem published, didn't you?|You had a poem published, didn't you?]] [[Why do you think the decision was made to make Greenham Women only, a women only camp?|Why do you think the decision was made to make Greenham Women only, a women only camp?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

I didn't know that. Some friend of mine sent it off. I didn't know she'd sent it off. And she just said, ‘Oh, it's going to be in the Raving Beauties book.’ But no, I didn't send the poem off. It just arrived in the book. But I think I'm incred-ibly shy. And I think lots of people have got big mouths and much to say, are often actually very shy. Because you take on a persona. [[Yeah you're not being yourself.|Yeah you're not being yourself.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Yeah you're not being yourself2.]]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. [[Yeah.|Yeah you're not being yourself2.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Yeah you're not being yourself2.]]

As a kid, I wanted to be a dancer, ballet dancer. And I used to - my mother was a cleaner in Collin Gardens, We lived in a basement flat and it was, the house was - what was it called? A Refuge for Retired Gentlewoman. So she used to get up at six in the morning and start cleaning, she used to go into the Red Cross at 6 at night and clean till 10 in the evening. So there was a church nearby. I think it was St Lukes. I don't remember. And I, you couldn't go in unless, you were a rich person. And you know, all the people who worked for the rich people weren't allowed into the gardens. You weren't allowed the key. So from an early age, I'd learned how to climb over the fence. I knew where the gardener hid the key to the church hall. I thought what I'll do is I'll give a show. So I wrote out all these invitations to this free show. And I knew where they kept, you know an old wind up gramophone. And we'd got lots of classical and ballet, you know, 78. So I put all these notices through the door and opened the church hall one Thursday night, and loads of people came. And it was lovely. And then the Vicar came, somebody must have told the Vicar so, but it was only after about two hours. And we all got thrown out and I got banned from the gardens. An old bloke who lived in the Mews, who was a Colonel came up to me and said, 'You are a very good dancer. I want you to go and see somebody I know. Do you have ballet lessons?' And I used to buy Girl Comic and School Friend, you know, you, and you went to ballet lessons if you were rich, which was, you know, was true. So he gave me this link. Her name was Miss Bumble, Bunbury, Miss Bunbury, and she lived in Cheney Walk. I went to see her and she asked me to dance. And she had a ballet studio upstairs. And the ballet studio had a bar but it had mirrors and the mirrors reflected the light from the Thames - so that you know the whole room shimmered when you were dancing. Yeah and she she said that she’d teach me for free with the, you know, the rich kids, which she did. And then she put me in for a scholarship. I think it was called a Cuchetti Scholarship. I remember going home and telling my Mum and Dad and I was so thrilled. They said, ‘Oh, you can't do it. We're going to move.’ And we did and I didn't do it. But I always wanted to act or dance. And when my first two kids were at school, I went to an audition at the Mercury Theatre in Notting Hill and got a part. And then I worked in the theatre for about three years, I think. But then you know my husband said, ‘It's either the theatre or the family.’ So I gave it up. [[There seems to be a lot of other people making decisions about your life.|There seems to be a lot of other people making decisions about your life.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Dance No Not At all]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

I think so you could say, well, ‘Why are you so stupid to allow them to do that?’ [[No, not at all.|Dance No Not At all]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Dance No Not At all]]

But I think when there's children involved, and you know, I did feel I did feel guilty about it. Although they were looked after during out of school time if I wasn't there by a woman who had a parrot, and the person opposite in Richmond had a monkey. So that's quite a good place to be kids. [[Amazing place to be. What were the relationships like with the local residents of Newbury when you were at Greenham? What was your experience of them?|Amazing place to be. What were the relationships like with the local residents of Newbury when you were at Greenham? What was your experience of them?]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIvor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think, I think they were terribly mixed, actually. I mean, there are people who really hated us being there. I think, was the - was it Trusthouse 40 or some-body? They banned us, actually banned us going into the coffee shops and stuff. But I don't want to sound like an old fashioned liberal but I think when, when you stop and you actually talk to people, it really helps a lot. You know whether it's the police or the US army. The only time I've been thrown down by a US Army person, she was a woman. She threw us down on the concrete. I mean, there was, you know, the worst, some real violent moments. But the local people I think, thought we were a bloody nuisance. And they said we smelt funny, which is almost certainly true. Because if you sit around the fire a lot you smell of the fire and you know. It would be interesting to know what they think of us now - as opposed to what they thought of us then. I think people, I mean we looked scruffy, we probably were scruffy. I still look scruffy I look just as scruffy as I did then. I think we were a nuisance. Then as the police, new police bill goes through, you'll be arrested for being an annoyance. So let’s, let's make sure that we all carry on being annoyed. I can't really, I can’t give you an impression of what local people thought. I mean, sometimes they’d come and they'd really shout at you. It would be - and I think we were an inconvenience as well. [[What about the military and the police? There were some violent moments, but some you could talk to and they'd listen?|What about the military and the police? There were some violent moments, but some you could talk to and they'd listen?]] [[How did the kind of collective decision making work at Greenham?|Yeah, absolutely. How did the kind of collective decision making work?]]

Well, I think there were violent moments, as I say when we got in once and the US were in there, the woman in charge got me and threw me down onto the concrete. But that was, that was really unusual. It's funny, because the other day somebody was asking me about the declaration I'd made when I went to America. And she'd said to said to me, was there any violence? No, not that I can remember. She said, ‘Well why don't you read your declaration?’ So I read it. And listen, there's an incident described where the US army said, ‘If you put your hands near that fence,’ you know ‘we'll have you.’ And this woman puts just puts her fingers through the fence, and just pushes the fence about two centimetres. And he sort of karate chops her hand and there's blood every-where. And, it was me. I really, you know you've got a selective memory haven't you, because I didn't remember. As soon as I read it because I had to read it out. So when I read it out I thought yes, I do remember this and I had to go to the hospital and stuff. But I also think, you know, he said, don't touch that fence. And I thought bugger you. I mean, I was winding him up as much as I was winding, he was winding me up. [[But you weren't hurting anyone.|But you weren't hurting anyone.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|But you weren't hurting anyone2.]]

That wasn’t - no he certainly, he really did hurt me actually, he did. [[Yes.|But you weren't hurting anyone2.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|But you weren't hurting anyone2.]]

But it's amazing what you choose not to remember. But on the whole I've found. And I used to have, I had quite serious disagreements with other women about this. Because I do think if you, if you talk to people and explain it does help. I was just thinking about you know, my children. I remember my youngest son letting the police car tyres down as an action in in Wales, and my oldest son, it was it was an anti National Front march in Cardiff, and I was on that and I don't know where he was. Anyhow, that night we were watching television. And there were some teenagers lobbing lumps of just mud at the protesters. And I remember saying in a very self righteous way, ‘That isn't the way to deal with things.’ And I realised it was my eldest son. And my daughter and I, after Chernobyl, decided we needed to do something. We went together in to - I had already been banned from the House of Commons, because I'd got arrested there with the Greenham Women in the crypt. So I said to my daughter, I mustn't give my right name. So they came along, and I said ‘Carole’, but they didn't do anything. We were dressed up as tourists and we had sort of, you know, diamond earrings and mascara and, you know. Big, really big sort of designer bags. And they were going to have this debate on Chernobyl. But there was another debate first. So we got in, right into the centre of the stranger's galley - still open in those days. And gradually from there - we weren't supposed to be there, because we only booked for the one to be - it started to fill up, like Greenpeace protesters and Friends of the Earth. And so we were right in the centre. And when they started the debate, what we got in our bag - and they’d searched our bags, but we'd got it in the lining - was flour, you know, just self raising flour and spring blossoms, and leaflets. And we had to decide which, which one of us was going to stand up and give the speech and which one was going to empty the flour and the leaflets over the MPs, so we tossed for it. And I don't know if I won or lost, I think I probably lost. So she said that she wanted to go to the loo and sort of got out, got down to the very front. And nobody - I mean, she looked so posh, nobody bothered. And she opened her bag, and she just emptied the flour and the flower petals and the leaflets over the MPs. And it was an incredible moment because the flour, because it's been compacted, as she shook it over the MPs it rose in the sort of, you know, nuclear cloud you know above them, and they came to drag her off. So I had to stand up and start to make a speech, which I did. And I thought, well, it'll only be two seconds, you know, because they'll drag me out. Bloody hell the, you know, the Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace all put their feet across the benches, so nobody could get through. So I had to keep on and I was praying, ‘Please take me away. Grab me.' So I gave my maiden speech in the House of Commons. And it seemed to go on for 20 minutes. I think it was about 5 minutes. It was a long time. So yeah, they, they grew up to be good kids. [[Do you see any of these tactics being used anywhere now? These kind of non-violent direct action?|Do you see any of these tactics being used anywhere now? These kind of non-violent direct action?]] [[[[Amazing.|childrenamazing]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIvor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, I see it with the Extinction Rebellion sit ins. But I didn't think, I mean, I went on the Kill the Bill demonstration. Which was you know the March it was good. And we went to Parliament Square, and we sat down and that was good. But you could also see and this was two years ago, you could also see that there were elements that really wanted a punch up with the police. I don't know if I'd say it was stronger now than it was then. You know, because you're in danger of looking at the good old days, you know, when we all be-haved much better. No, no, I don't think we did really. But in the last 18 months - it's been so weird. [[Yeah.|direct action Yeah.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|direct action Yeah.]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIvor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

So you can save the planet but infect your neighbour. I've got a great grand-daughter and then the song with Extinction Rebellion, you know, about 18 months ago - and one of the lines of, you know, about your great granddaughter and I thought, ‘God what must it be like to have a great granddaughter?’ I've now got a great granddaughter. So I'd quite like the world to continue and get better for her and for everybody. [[Thank Carole Stuart McIvor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Because men are dicks. I mean that, they are so - they cannot help but think that they should be in control because they think they know better and I think fuck all has changed really. I mean, you have a, have another layer of oppression to scramble through before you get to the government, you know. I know its a huge generalisation. In, I was, I was uncertain about the decision, well for about three minutes. And the fact that you know Greenham was women only, I think was incredibly important. I don't think it would have done half the things that we'd have done if men had been involved. That's not to say that, you know, we were all nice and kind to each other and there was no conflict. There was a hell of a lot of conflict. There was the issues that nobody, or a lot of people didn't want to address, you know let alone, do something about I mean. Diversity was a real issue at Greenham. It was essentially white, it was often essentially middle class. And to raise those sort of issues often caused - I’m trying to think of a polite way of saying this… Caused battles actually it caused battles. [[And how were they resolved? So how was conflict managed?|And how were they resolved? So how was conflict managed?]] [[Do you think that different people from different backgrounds tended to group together?|do you think that different people from different backgrounds tended to group together or what did people?]]

Yeah, I don't know the answer to that really. It was, it used to be resolved because it had to be and if you have to be sort of out, doing something deeply illegal, you're gonna have to do it anyhow so you just have to stop arguing about stuff. [[Do you think that different people from different backgrounds tended to group together?|do you think that different people from different backgrounds tended to group together or what did people?]]

I think they would have done this, they could have done, but there often weren't enough, you know, which was the issue in the first place. And sometimes you had really sort of odd moments talking about diversity. I remember meeting a black woman at Greenham. I think it's on Christmas Eve and she was Michael Foot's chauffeur. And he'd brought down a stilton cheese and some good wine. I mean, I was very fond of Michael Foot. You know, for fucks sake you know. That's a sort of, you know, that's the sort of amusing one because it sort of mirrors the balance of power, I think. [[Yeah, absolutely. How did the kind of collective decision making work?|Yeah, absolutely. How did the kind of collective decision making work?]]

I'm an Anarchist and I believe in no leaders. I've very rarely seen anything be organised that didn't have leaders. And, you know - I say this as one of the plaintiffs who went to America - you know, as one of the people who went and lectured at Harvard, you know, who the fuck am I to say about you know, to say about these issues? I don't, people, excuse me, people with ideas and ideas about how to organise carrying out those ideas. They're not called leaders but because somebody is not called a leader doesn't mean that they're not a leader. Depends what you, how you define leadership. [[Were everyone's opinions listened to to form a plan of direct actions and things?|Were everyone's opinions listened to to form a plan of direct actions and things?]] [[What do you think the legacy is of Greenham within the peace movement?|What do you think the legacy is of Greenham within the peace movement?]]

I think people really did try actually to be fair. I think people did try to listen to, I remember the, I think she was an Italian woman who wanted us to do the silo naked, naked. And I think we all, we all listened, but we all knew bloody well, we were not taking our knickers off to go over the barbed wire. You know people were, you know, I hope that people were listened to. But you know one of the things about leadership is you have to - you know, you've got, you’ve got a round table of equality, but who lets those equals in in the first place? You know, it's some, in some things, self defined, you know, so that people with ideas and the ability to organise those ideas - they won't call themselves leaders, but they probably will be. I think it's complex. Yeah. But I think it's something to be careful of, very careful of. [[What do you think the legacy is of Greenham within the peace movement?|What do you think the legacy is of Greenham within the peace movement?]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIver, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

You see. You talked, we were in the pub the other day. And one of the young guys said, oh, we were talking about Greenham, and he knew about Greenham and he must have been, no, he wasn't 12 otherwise he wouldn't be working in the pub. But he was really young, and he knew about Greenham. And that really surprised me. And I remember when Emma and I actually got locked up in the tower, you know, the clocktower, Big Ben, when we done the action in the in parliament for Chernobyl. And loads of MPs and stuff came up and bought us tea and biscuits and things. But one of the people who were looking after us said, ‘Oh, we had an exhibition about you, you sort of ladies the other week.’ And we said, ‘Well, what was that?’ He said, 'Oh the Suffragettes.’ And we glowed and we sort of tingled, and we thought, that's great. So, that you are in a tradition, I think, if you've been really involved in something, you perhaps lose sight of its separate impacts, you know, just something you did. But I think the, I think it has made a huge imprint really. I mean, I think the non-violence was incredibly important. But also the numbers, the mass numbers, and you're talking about 1000s and 1000s. Yeah, you’d - it would be interesting to ask people, you know, what… Do they even know what Greenham Common was? [[Why do you think it's important for Greenham to be remembered, you know, for future generations?|Why do you think it's important for Greenham to be remembered, you know, for future generations?]] [[Thank Carole Stuart McIvor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Because Mr. Gorbachev said it should be remembered. I mean, he actually said didn’t he that, you know, Greenham Women made, you know, made the test ban treaty possible. Michael Heseltine said he thought we ought to be shot. Well, that's two good reasons for remembering Greenham really. And also that the positive stuff that you can change things, you can change things, you know, we're hurtling towards a climate crisis. But you can change it, you can intervene, you can say ‘Stop.' You know, you can redirect the traffic, you can do that, you can do it literally and you can do it metaphorically. But you have to- and knowing that people have done it before. Yeah, I think it's really important. [[Thank Carole Stuart McIvor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

What would you like to ask Carolyn Barnes? [[How did you become involved with with Greenham?|how did you become involved with with Greenham?]] [[How do you think the media represented Greenham?|how do you think the media represented Greenham?]] [[How well do you believe the legacy of Greenham has been passed down through the generations? |how well do you believe the legacy of Greenham has been passed down through the generations?]]

What would you like to ask Di McDonald? [[Should we like, start with your story? Back at the beginning. How did you get involved in the first place?|Should we like, start with your story? Back at the beginning. How did you get involved in the first place?]] [[How supportive were the press towards Greenham?|Were they quite supportive to you and did they print it quite often?newthread]]

What would you like to ask Pixie Taylor? [[Could you start by telling me what took you there? Initially?|Could you start them by telling me what took you there? Initially?]] [[What was the portrayal of Greenham like in the media?|What do you think the portrayal of Greenham was like in the media?]]

What would you like to ask Sian Jones? [[Can you tell me a bit about yourself?|Can you tell me a bit about yourself?]] [[How did Newbury react to your presence? Was it friendly?|how did, how did Newbury react, residents react to your experience, in your experi-ence, which, I mean, one woman I've interviewed, she thought, oh, everything was fine! No problem.]]

What would you like to ask Zohl dé Ishtar? [[Where would you like to start?|Where would you like to start?]] [[How did you balance out the grief and seriousness of what you were challenging at Greenham, without people thinking you weren't taking it seriously?|You talked a lot about, you know, it's the best place on earth and the fun that you had and like you were always having a ball. How did that, why was it important, I suppose? Or how did it balance out with the grief I suppose that you were trying to get across to people that, in the campaign? You know if people if people looked at it and thought oh you're just having fun that's obviously not the case. Why was it important to have that?]]

Well, I came down to Southampton from Bolton where I grew up to, to the university. And I came.. I started a maths degree, which I then dropped out of after a year, because I didn't really know why I was doing it. And.. but.. I still.. I lived in a shared house with students. And so I, I think I actually probably spent more time up at the university when I wasn't actually studying there. Because I joined various groups like CND and Third World First, as it was called then. And so I just, I guess there must have been a women's group or there was certainly, you know, a really strong women's movement at the time. And there were some local, there was a local group called Families Against the Bomb, which I don’t - I don't know if you know Di? She had a campervan. And so she used to take a whole group of us up to Greenham. For demonstrations, or I think I mean, I probably only ever stayed just overnight a couple of times before, before, there were demos, but I didn't actually live there. But that was really how I got involved, with CND at the university and the women's group and, and Di, I guess. [[Which gate did you stay at?|which gate did you stay at?]] [[When you first arrived what were your first impressions? Was it like you had expected it to be?|when you first arrived what were your first impressions? Was it like you had expected it to be?]]

You know, I can't really remember. I mean, I, I remember going to the main gate. I mean, I would have been 19 around sort of 19, 20, 21 at that time. And my memories are a bit vague. So I can't really remember what all the gates were, I think, I think we went to Blue Gate was that on the other side? We did. We actually stayed overnight, just kind of bivvied, really outside the gate. Because then they were, they were bringing cruise missiles in the following day. And there were, there were police on horses that were trying to clear us away. I don't think they actually hurt anybody, but it was quite - I think some people were quite scared. I think I was quite naive. I didn't really feel particularly scared from what I remember. Because I just didn't you know, I was, I was quite naive about what could happen I suppose. But yeah, so, so we stayed that, that night and I think it was Blue Gate. That was the very first time that I went there actually was with a a small - just with probably three or four other people. And it was a mixed group and there weren't other people there. It was just like in Woodland and we just camped in Woodland there. And I think that was from the CND group. But we just stayed overnight in a tent, and then went back, you know, came back to Southampton. It wasn't a demo or anything. From what I remember, it was just I think we were just doing a bit of the kind of pilgrimage we'd heard about Greenham happening and just went to have a look. But we had a couple of men in the group so, so we didn't stay where there were other people. Yes. [[When you first arrived what were your first impressions? Was it like you had expected it to be?|when you first arrived what were your first impressions? Was it like you had expected it to be?]] [[What was the relationship like with the local residents around the camp or with the police or the military at Greenham?|What was the relationship like with the local residents around the camp or with the police or the military at Greenham?]]

I don't think I had any expectations. I, I don't think you know, I was.. I was fairly new to politics, I suppose. And, and I hadn't really studied history particularly. And so I didn't really, I didn't really know what to expect, I suppose. I mean, it was, it was, it was exciting because because it was so unusual and because it was all women, and it was, it was, you know, there were there was a different kind of ethos, I suppose. I mean, it is a bit like Extinction Rebellion does kind of remind me of that, in that, you know, they, they try to be, you know, involve everybody and it's, it's all a bit wacky with the hands signals and everything, you know, it's a different, different ways of doing things, I suppose. And not just having a few men sort of dominating, which often, even now, I think, happens in groups. Yeah, so it was quite exciting. And, I mean, I've never seen anything like it. I mean, I, you know - as a child, we'd been to caravans on holiday, but we'd never been camping. So it was all quite, sort of I don't know, earthy and and kind of real and natural and yeah, sort of primal or something. [[Are you still in contact with friends from Greenham?|Thank you. And you met, you had some friends, and you're still in contact with those friends. I understand. Is that right?]] [[What was the relationship like with the local residents around the camp or with the police or the military at Greenham?|What was the relationship like with the local residents around the camp or with the police or the military at Greenham?]]

I, I am. I've got, I've got one friend, particularly, who.. who actually I didn't know particularly well at Greenham, although I do have a photograph of her at Greenham. This photo of me talking to a policeman. And then there's a a woman here in a white polo neck jumper that's, that's my friend Ingrid. And, and I'm still good friends with her although as I say I wasn't particularly friends with her at the time. And it's just that she, she was involved, she she lived in Southampton too, so yes, I'm in touch with her. I'm not I'm not really in touch with a lot of people and I'm kind of sad about that. I mean some of them I've tried to look up on Facebook but not managed to find - I mean, there was this, there was a woman... Everybody called her Blue and and we were really quite close. Because I think, because I had a bit more time, because I wasn't I wasn't doing anything I'd dropped out of university. And she was very driven. She'd grown up on kind of army bases or RAF bases because her dad was in I think in the RAF or the army I'm not sure which. And, and she was.. really she really kind of rebelled, and so the two of us would often you know sort of get involved with things, and, and one of my photos there is we, we did a fast I think I think it must have been - I don't know if there was a kind of nationally organised one. But we.. because all our leaflets, we did our own leaflets about this fast for life, which was Hiroshima day to Nagasaki day. And this was the fast for life. And, and we camped - well camped, we just slept by the Bargate in Southampton which is just like this monument in the middle of Southampton. We just, we just slept on the pavement outside. And a few other people came and joined us and we we just drank water for three days. And I think we did it perhaps three times, three years. Yeah, it was - it was quite an experience. [[And how did you feel after the three days of fasting?|And how did you feel after the three days of fasting?]] [[What was the relationship like with the local residents around the camp or with the police or the military at Greenham?|What was the relationship like with the local residents around the camp or with the police or the military at Greenham?]] [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, again, I don't really remember. But I do, I do remember being a bit sick. At one point, you know, it's kind of vomiting bile. Cos, you know, I mean, it wasn't something I'd ever done before. Yeah, but I mean, it was it was okay. I guess, I mean, it was quite hard. It was quite hard to do. And we were right outside a Burger King or someplace like that. In fact, we used to go into Burger King to use the toilets to have a wash and a wee in the morning. [[And how were you received by Burger King?|And how were you received by Burger King?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|And how were you received by Burger King?]]

And I think they didn't mind I think they let us do it. Because so I mean, there were only a handful of us. So it wasn't like it was lots of people traipsing in and I guess it was a quiet time of day for them. So I don't remember them objecting. Yeah. [[What was the relationship like with the local residents around the camp or with the police or the military at Greenham?|What was the relationship like with the local residents around the camp or with the police or the military at Greenham?]] [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think I.. I mean, I, I guess it was quite mixed. Because you'd get, you'd get people driving driving past and honking their horns and being supportive. And then you'd also get people driving past and shouting and I mean, I, I can't remember any particular kind of abuse that they'd throw at the camp, but I mean, certainly there was a feeling that it was quite mixed. The, the police, I guess were I mean.. some of, some of them were probably quite supportive. I don't know. Some of them less so. I mean, they did used to drag us around but I don't, I mean, I was, I was never hurt. And the, the I do have a memory of one one time. I mean, just just going back to the residents, I don't, I don't really remember residents particularly because it all seemed like it was very much in the country. There didn't seem to be very many people living around there. I mean the women actually living on the camp may have had more experience of that. But just going for the day, we didn't really get a feeling of that at all. I mean, I think we probably felt a bit you know, like people thought we were odd. But there were an awful lot of us you know to be odd, really. But I still feel rather odd you know that people, people you know, people - I don't know people don't expect women to stick up for each other or. Erm, hmm. Anyway, perhaps we'll go back to that. Yeah. So I was, I was remembering one time when we were arrested - I’m trying to think actually, I think it was probably, I can't remember if it was Greenham or Upper Heyford - I’ve a feeling it might have been Upper Heyford. Because there were two, or two or three times I was arrested. And we were in - there were a few of us in a cell. And I remember I, I wrote something on the wall of the cell. And, and the when the, there was a woman police officer who came in and, and she, you know - there were other things written on the wall, I don't know how she particularly noticed. But she said, ‘Who wrote that?’ And, and nobody kind of, none of us said anything. And then eventually, I think I caved in and said it was me or something. And then when, when they came to they, when they - yeah, when they came to charge us and release us she made a bit of a thing of this being criminal damage. And, you know, I'm looking back I can, you know, she must have, she must have thought, oh, yeah, you know, this is some kind of naive, middle class girl who's, you know.. [[Do you remember what you wrote on the wall that made her notice it?|Do you remember what you wrote on the wall that made her notice it?]] [[And so how long did you spend in the cell?|And so how long did you spend in the cell?]]

Yeah. Well, you know, I can't remember what it was. I mean, you know, I don't know, some kind of poem or something. I don't know. But yeah, she obviously quite enjoyed kind of scaring me, I think. Which was, you know, interesting, I suppose. Being, and being a woman as well. [[And so how long did you spend in the cell?|And so how long did you spend in the cell?]] [[Do you remember how many times you were arrested?|Do you remember how many times you were arrested?]]

Well, so that I mean, we I can't remember there I mean, a few hours maybe. I was thinking, actually, that can't have been Upper Heyford because at Upper Heyford they kept us in a gym in some leisure centre, because there were so many of us. And so we were there for a good few hours. Unless they then transferred us. Actually they might have been just transferred us in little groups to the police station. But it's all a bit blurry. You know, I mean, it's a long time ago. [[Do you remember how many times you were arrested?|Do you remember how many times you were arrested?]] [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I think it was possibly three and I think maybe one time I wasn't charged. At Upper Hayford which I think was probably the first time we paid, we paid the fine. We went, we had to go to court. And I think it was the local CND group paid the fine. And then at Greenham, when, when we were arrested at Greenham, there were, I was in, I was in court with eight, there were eight of us all together in court, and it was my 21st birthday. And I.. I spent the weekend with my family at my brother's house, my brother and his wife's house. And my Mum had been very upset about the thought of me going to court and being arrested and had hugged me and and kind of made me promise that I would pay the fine. And yeah, so it was probably our second time in court because I think initially we.. yeah, I, we were probably bailed for a week or something I can't remember. Anyway, so so then - because it was a civil offence, but then because we didn't pay the fine it became a criminal offence. And, and then I remember getting back to Southampton and I rang my Mum and just said, well, actually, you know, I don't want to pay the fine and, and after that I don't think she ever talked to me about it again. And I never brought it up. She never, I can't remember her ever asking me what it was like or because then from, from the court there they, they sent us down to the the cells at Newbury. And we were in the cells there, we each had an individual cell. And the thing I remember about that is that we had to sleep with the light on, the light was on all night. And then during the day, we, we all went into a big cell together a kind of communal cell, which was, which was okay, because there were eight of us together. I didn’t, I didn't know the other women but, but obviously, you know, we were comrades I suppose. [[What was the mood like because you were all gathered together?|What was the mood like because you were all gathered together?]] [[How were you treated whilst you're in Holloway for those two days?|How were you treated whilst you're in Holloway for those two days?]]

I mean, it was quite it was quite upbeat, you know, when I think the.. the police who were looking after us were, were quite upbeat about it. I mean, they weren't, they weren't horrible to us, or I remember them going to get somebody some - it’s funny what you remember, isn't it? I mean, I may have misremembered, but going to get some beans on toast for somebody who was vegan. They seemed, you know, quite kind of human really. And then, after we spent two nights there and then they took us to Holloway for two nights. And split us up there. So the first night, I was there, I was in a cell again with I think, seven other women but, but I didn't know them at all, they weren't Greenham women. So they, they were in prison for all sorts of different things. And we were in bunk beds in this, this room. And and I received loads of cards, loads of supportive cards, that I've still got somewhere actually. And yeah, I think they were quite interested in, in what was going on. And, but I felt quite kind of guilty because I was in there and wasn't going to be in there for for very long. And I'd got all this support from people outside. And all these other women were in there for what seemed like really kind of minor offences. And when, you know, were not necessarily gonna get out of that situation, you know, even if they were released, they they weren't, they were still released to a kind of shitty kind of life, where it might happen again, so yeah. So that was the first night and then the second night, I was just in a cell with two other women. And one of them was a kind of middle aged woman, who was - her Mum was also in Holloway on another wing, because they'd been accused of fraud, credit card fraud. And, but.. she had been going out with a policeman or something and, and she said he'd framed them or it wasn't true. Well, anyway, I obviously don't know the truth of it. But it sounded, you know, like a pretty kind of sad situation. And, and there was a young woman who had a young baby that her Dad was looking after, and she I mean, she was really kind of young and vulnerable really. And, and she, she had an asthma attack while we were in there and I knocked, I sort of shouted for help pressed the bell or whatever, shouted for help. And one of the women officers came to the came to the door, but she wouldn't come in because she thought it was you know, we were going to attack her or something so she wouldn't actually give us the the inhaler. I think eventually she did, but you know, got some backup or something and opened the door. But that really shocked me because I'd never come across that before you know. I mean, I was that middle class naive 21 year old, having had an easy life really. [[How were you treated whilst you're in Holloway for those two days?|How were you treated whilst you're in Holloway for those two days?]] [[What effect did did all of this have on your friends? What effect did it have on your personal life?|And so what effect did did all of this have on your friends? And you know, you've spoken about your Mother didn't ever say anything else to you about it, but what effect did it have on your personal life?]]

Um, I mean, I think we, we weren't particularly kind of singled out. I mean, we were just treated like everybody else. I mean, I think it - what I felt I saw and learned from being in there was different ways that, that the women reacted to the power imbalance, you know. Because some women became very kind of submissive and trying to kind of get what they wanted, or whatever, just by by being quite submissive. And then there were, there were others who were really kind of feisty, and tried trying to sort of be be more kind of aggressive and get what they wanted. So it was, it was quite, I mean, it's a real kind of, I suppose it's a real parent child kind of relationship, isn't it? You know, where you're, you're in there and you don't have any power. But I mean, for me, I was only in there for two nights. And then I was out and people came and picked me up. And you know, I had lots of support. Whereas most of the people in there wouldn't. So it did teach me a lot. There were cockroaches and, there was a.. in the sort of communal cell there was a toilet just in a kind of a little cubicle without a door in the corner. And there were cockroaches that came up at night. And yeah, it wasn't very nice. But I don't I mean, I don't remember it being particularly uncomfortable or you know - mind you I'd slept on the, I'd slept at the Bargate on the pavement. You put up with things at 21 that you don't as you get older. [[What effect did did all of this have on your friends? What effect did it have on your personal life?|And so what effect did did all of this have on your friends? And you know, you've spoken about your Mother didn't ever say anything else to you about it, but what effect did it have on your personal life?]] [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Hmm. I mean, obviously, you know, most of my friends were were pretty left wing anyway or involved in some kind of non-violent direct action or, or in the Labour Party or, you know, the.. so, so most of my friends would have been generally supportive. It would be.. I mean, I, you know, as I was saying, I, I haven't really kept in contact with a lot of people from a lot of women from that time. And, and it would be interesting to, to discuss what it was like, what the experience was like. But I think I think we all had different experiences of it, really. Listening to some of the other things that that other women have said, you know, there were women from so many different kinds of backgrounds and situations that none of us had the same experience of it really. [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I don't think I paid a lot of attention. I was too.. too busy to kind of watch the news or anything particularly. So, so I don't know. But I have got this.. I had this cutting from the local daily echo in Southampton that says, ‘Peace Woman Refuses to Pay Fine, Birthday in Custody. Southampton peace woman, Carolyn Barnes spent her 21st birthday in police custody at the start of a seven day prison sentence for refusing to pay fines imposed after she took part in a blockade at Greenham Common.’ And it goes on and it you know, it's quite a quite a nice little article.. doesn't say, you know, shameful woman or anything like that. And it was.. I think it was on the front page, or it was certainly, you know, it was quite, quite prominent anyway. So maybe not the front page, but yeah, so. So I don't know, I suppose I mean, like now, you know, there's such a mixture of views isn't there? Everywhere. [[Why do you think it was that the suffrage movement seems to have had more publicity than Greenham? Why do you think that was?|So why do you think it was that the suffrage movement seems to have had more publicity than Greenham? Why do you think that was?]] [[What do you think today's generation of activists might be able to learn from the experiences of the Greenham women?|So what do you think today's generation of activists might be able to learn from the experiences of the Greenham women?]]

I mean, I think it's possibly, I mean.. I know, it's 40 years ago, but it's possibly kind of too recent, you know. I mean, it's easy to be supportive of women, you know, fighting for equality 100 years ago or something, but I mean, like I said, I still feel like we, you know, we were odd in a way. [[In what way odd?|In what way odd?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|In what way odd?]]

Well, I suppose, I mean, to some extent, we.. You know, part of the point of it was to be opposed to the way things are to the, the, the power in society. So, we were kind of the outlaws, you know, the, the people who were you know, the witches, the mad women or the, you know, people that, that weren't going along with the status quo, and the way things are. I mean, like others, you know, have been kind of put down, I suppose, or minimised, or, you know, to minimise the threat of it, I suppose. You know, a lot, a lot of us at that time, I mean, you know. Like, for me, I was involved in all that. And then, once I once I met somebody and had children, then I didn't have time to think about anything like that anymore. I didn't have time to keep in touch with people, or you know, just having, having children and trying to, trying to at that stage start a career. That was kind of enough. That was it was quite, quite hard. But I mean, I didn't you know, not everybody would have been in my situation, I suppose. But maybe, maybe quite, I mean, if the, I guess there were probably quite a lot of students involved, or young women. But, I mean, there were all sorts of women that were there that you know, from different, like I say, from different backgrounds and different situations, so I don’t, I don't know. I guess they also went off and, you know, lived, have lived their lives and have not really had the chance to come back together again. I mean, it was really powerful. And I guess there I mean, there is footage isn't there, there's film footage, but there isn't loads of it, you know, like now, everybody everybody's got a phone and a camera and takes photos all the time. And I guess what we had was a lot more limited. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know why - I mean, maybe these things always come in waves. And you make some kind of little inroad but you know, like cruise missiles are taken away, but then we still got Trident and you know, it's not really completely gone away. It's just abated a bit. [[What do you think today's generation of activists might be able to learn from the experiences of the Greenham women?|So what do you think today's generation of activists might be able to learn from the experiences of the Greenham women?]] [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, you know, I mean, I don't know how all those events were really organised, because I just went along. But, but just how that, how things were organised must be something to learn from because, because it was quite amazing to have so many, so many women there. I mean, to, to actually encircle the base holding hands was quite amazing. [[Did you take part in that?|Did you take part in that?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Just describe it, what it felt like and how long you were there doing that for?]]

Yeah. Yeah. [[Could you describe it, what it felt like and how long you were there doing that for? |Just describe it, what it felt like and how long you were there doing that for?]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Just describe it, what it felt like and how long you were there doing that for?]]

Well, I mean, I think, I think like a lot of demos where there's a lot of people, it's a little bit a little bit scary, I suppose. In that you don't know exactly what's going to happen. But I was there with other people that I knew. And, and so we, we just, we had somewhere to go. And we yeah, I mean, it was just amazing how we all I mean, I think there was a bit of kind of tramping around trying to find a space. But then actually all holding hands around the base was just amazing. And, and then we did another another thing as well, where we pulled the fence down. Where we were cutting, you know, we we all went with bolt cutters and and cut the fence and actually and pulled it down. [[How did you smuggle bolt cutters into the camp?|How did you smuggle bolt cutters into the camp?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|How did you smuggle bolt cutters into the camp2?]]

Well, it wasn't into the camp. I mean, we we kind of I mean, I think because it was so sort of in the middle of nowhere and, you know, there were places where you could go and, uh, not not really be - I mean, we'd I can't I think we just we went up there early in the morning. And, and they must have known that, I mean, there were there were squaddies, you know, on the inside of the fence, just kind of spread out.. [[Wow..|How did you smuggle bolt cutters into the camp2?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|How did you smuggle bolt cutters into the camp2?]]

But I mean, it was a huge fence. So, you know, they, they needed loads of, loads of them. So that I mean, they couldn't really do anything about it, except watch us. And, and we just so we just had, we sort of waited until a particular time in the morning, and then we just, we just went up to the fence and started cutting it with bolt cutters and, and got on each other's shoulders and, and cut it and pulled it and and just pulled it down. So I mean, and sang. It was just really yeah, kind of benign really. It wasn't. We didn't hate them or anything. And I think they were quite kind of bemused. I mean, we, you know, women's groups made amazing banners. And yeah, we did lots of singing. I mean, so my friend Ingrid has, has been involved with Extinction Rebellion to some extent. And so I guess, you know, she's probably shared what she knows with the local group. But I guess it was some kind of web. And I mean, now we actually have an electronic web, don't we? So it must be easier. I just don't know how they, how they got the word out. And I suppose a lot of what we did wasn't wasn't necessarily illegal. You know, holding hands around the base. I mean, there's nothing illegal about that. It's just very kind of powerful and and symbolic, isn't it? Yeah. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I don't know that it has very well. Because, I mean, maybe some women have managed to but but personally, I feel because because we all dispersed really - you know, I mean, my children know, you know. I've got this little collage thing, you know, that they could read if they were interested, but I mean, they don't, you know.. like children as children, we don't really have a much of a sense of our parents lives before we existed do we. So I kind of feel like they probably don't have a great sort of sense of what happened. [[Do you think it would make any difference if they did know?|Do you think it would make any difference if they did know?]] [[So why, why do you think it is important that Greenham is remembered? And if so, what should it be remembered for?|So why, why do you think it is important that Greenham is remembered? And if so, what should it be remembered for?]]

I think it would be really good for, for their generation to know what happened. It did surprise me. I mean, you know, I probably hadn't really thought about it before. But it surprised me when, when my my daughter and her friends and my niece didn't know about Greenham. They didn't know what Greenham was. They, they they've never heard of it. I remember I had, I had a video of it, there was a kind of there was a programme where they used to have sort of news of a particular year, and the music of the time and I don't know if you remember it. And there was, there was one, there was one, I think it must have been 1984 and I've not been able to find it, I can't find it in my videos, because I've videoed it off the off the telly because I was in it. It was like my, you know, my moment of fame where I was crying and then I was being dragged by a policeman and and then I lost it and I've I think it's the one the one year that you can't find on YouTube or something. So so you know, I just can't be famous after all. [[So why, why do you think it is important that Greenham is remembered? And if so, what should it be remembered for?|So why, why do you think it is important that Greenham is remembered? And if so, what should it be remembered for?]]

I.. I think I can’t, I can't remember any of the situation where where women have come together in such numbers and yet, you know, peacefully but but powerfully and I.. I think it's it was quite unusual and it's.. I mean, I think we've got we've still got, we've still got changes to make - haven’t we? There’s still.. there’s still a lot of abuse and you know, people having power who shouldn't or you know, who aren't using it well or.. and selfishness and greed and inequality and you know, a lot of those things still exist. And so, we still haven't made that different world. I mean, sometimes it looks like we have you know, there, you see it in some places. You see people working together and and be kind and, and, you know, people feel, a lot of the time, feel more civilised. But certainly that isn't always the case. And we haven't created the kind of world that that encourages that and discourages the the bad things. Unhelpful things. [[So do you have any thoughts on, why did it just fade away? Any thoughts on why that was?|So do you have any thoughts on, why did it just fade away? There seemed to be no ending people just drifted away from the camp. Any thoughts on why that was?]] [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I guess the.. I mean, the cruise missiles were taken away, weren't they. And the common reverted back to being a common so I suppose it it felt like that had.. that - I don't know if - is it like a wound in the immune system? See I work and I work in the NHS now. So everything, everything becomes a kind of relate in relation to the body or something. But it's almost like that was a kind of inflammatory wounds, and all these all these women came to kind of heal it, and then it was healed. And then, you know, what - what else was there to do? Except then, I mean, those you know, or all of us women have gone out and probably had some influence in our own lives, to heal and to make things better. So it's probably it's just that there hasn't been that kind of focus for such a such a long time. Until, you know, I mean, obviously, like, you know, Greta Thunberg, and the Extinction Rebellion and, and those things have - so it's just a slightly different focus now, isn't it? I mean, those they all seem - it feels like they're all part of the same thing, really the same kind of drive that we need to resist and change and heal. Hmm. So I guess that was.. I mean, you know, for me, obviously, you know, I was in my 20s. And then I.. I don't know, I got a job or something. People's lives changed - didn’t they? Yeah. [[Thank Carolyn Barnes, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

Okay, well, I went to Greenham when it first started and we just went to an event.. [[Yes..|DiMcDonald opener Yes]] [[Keep listening quietly|DiMcDonald opener Yes]]

And then carried on going after that. [[So did you stay overnight or we just like a day tripper?|So did you stay overnight or we just like a day tripper?]] [[Which, which gate was your gate?|Which, which gate was your gate?]]

Well, it's this whole thing about Greenham Women Everywhere.. [[Yeah.|Di McDonald GWE Yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Di McDonald GWE Yeah]]

Erm, and we didn't have that term for it in those days. [[Right.|Di McDonald No term Right]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Di McDonald No term Right]]

We didn't invent a system that would work we just ambled about doing what we thought needed doing at the time - and so sorry, what was your first question? Sorry. [[I was just just saying, you went to Greenham, and what was it Embrace the Base or something like that that you went to first?|I was just just saying, you went to Greenham, and what was it Embrace the Base or something like that that you went to first?]] [[Oh, right. Were involved right from the beginning?||Oh, right. So and, did you erm so you were involved right from the beginning?]]

No much before then, because I was involved in, you know, working on the, that event. [[Oh, right. So and, did you erm so you were involved right from the beginning?|Oh, right. So and, did you erm so you were involved right from the beginning?]] [[Did you camp overnight?|Stayed The night yeah]]

Yes. I know what you asked me, if I stayed the night. [[Yeah.|Stayed The night yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Stayed The night yeah]]

Yes. Well, I have a big family and they were very small children. So I wasn't able, I didn't want to and didn't need to stay all the time. But I work very closely with women and I stayed a lot of the time. And I lived at camp for a few days a week, particularly when there was the big evictions and everything was being taken by the bailiffs. [[Oh, god.|Oh, god.]] [[Which, which gate was your gate?|Which, which gate was your gate?]]

And you just needed as many hands to the pump at that time. [[Which, which gate was your gate?|Which, which gate was your gate?]] [[Do you have any archives of Greenham?|archives convo rearranging for Twine]]

So yeah, of course it changed over the years. To start with when there was only one camp at one gate, which was at the main gate. [[Yeah.|Gate yeah.]] [[Ok.|Gate yeah.]]

And oh there were tipis and all sorts of things then right at the beginning, that would be in ’80, ’82 or ’81, ’80. Well, anyway, whatever it was. And, and so learnt a lot being at Greenham about women, women’s ways of working. [[Yes.|Womens ways of working yes.]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Womens ways of working yes.]]

And so that was great. And I was able to do actions. And so I learned about doing that. And I learned about court cases and defending yourself and so on. So there was a lot to learn. And I learned lots of songs. [[Oh wonderful..|Yes, the songs the songs!]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

You know, I learned to fill in the latrine. Which was just, you know, very formally known as the shit pit. [[So, so Di. Where was your - so you were there a few days a week. Where was your home then?|So, so Di. Where was your - so you were there a few days a week. Where was your home then?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

Well, I started going when I lived in Oxford, and so.. [[It wasn't too far away.|It wasn't too far away.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Di Mcdonald dates]]

Yes. Yeah not too far away, exactly. [[When was this?|Di Mcdonald dates]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Di Mcdonald dates]]

Yeah, it must have been before ’82, we must have gone in ’81. [[Yeah.|Di MacDonald dates Yeah.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Di MacDonald dates Yeah.]]

Just not long after the well I think I can't remember what it was but anyway, there was some gathering and there was still men going then. Yeah, which was good cos the babies I had small children and three of them were triplet babies and so it meant that Paul could come with me. Yeah, he'd have one on his front and one on his back and I'd have one on my back. [[Oh my word.|Oh my word.]] [[So were you in the Oxford CND then? Was that where you..|So were you in the Oxford CND then? Was that where you]]

And my three other kids as well would come along so.. [[Wow.|Di Mcdonald kids wow]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Di Mcdonald kids wow]]

No it was called Campaign Atom. [[Oh.|Campaign Atom oh.]] [[So did you get involved with your Oxford group? The - what was it again, the atom?|So did you get involved with your Oxford group? The - what was it again, the atom?]]

The other one and even the triplets as they got older you - they very much enjoyed going to camp. [[Oh, I bet! What a great way to grow up!|Oh, I bet! What a great way to grow up!]] [[So were you in the Oxford CND then? Was that where you..|So were you in the Oxford CND then? Was that where you]]

It was good. They did enjoy it. [[Oh, how fabulous. So were you in the Oxford CND then? Was that where you..|So were you in the Oxford CND then? Was that where you]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

In Oxford. [[Oh, right.|Campaign Atom oh right.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Campaign Atom oh right.]]

And it grew up in parallel with CND groups all over. It's now called Oxford CND. But in the 80s it wasn't. Not until the 90s I don't think it changed its name. [[Campaign Atom, righto. And then - so you were there at the camp. Were you involved in Cruise Watch?|Campaign Atom, righto. And then - so you were there at the camp. And then how did you make the step from being a protester at the base to be involved in Cruise Watch, because it's quite a different thing really, isn't it?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. Well, what evolved was the convoys started to come out of the base. [[Yes.|Cruise Watch yes]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Cruise Watch yes]]

Exercise out in the countryside. [[Uh huh.|Cruise Watch uh huh]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Cruise Watch uh huh]]

And some women were able to video the first time it came out, which was brilliant. So then we knew what we were looking for and what it was like, because they would only come out at night. [[Yes.|Cruise Watch night yes]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Cruise Watch night yes]]

So very often not leave the base until 11 or 12, or even later. And then they'd go and find their site where they were going to stay for about a week. [[Mm hmm.|Cruise Watch mh hm]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Cruise Watch mh hm]]

And then they would come back, and they'd come back in the middle of the night and arrive back at Greenham about three in the morning. So it was - became clear that women who were at camp had got enough to do.. [[Yeah.|Cruise watch camp]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Cruise watch camp]]

Surviving, dealing with the bailiffs going to court cases, just even washing your hair, all these sort of important things. And a lot of women were in prison for a few days or weeks, at any one time. So the pressure was on for a rather different kind of groups that could take on in cooperation with women at camp. [[Yeah.|cruise watch and women in camp yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|cruise watch and women in camp yeah]]

And there was a lot of crossover between us. [[Of course, yes.|Of course, yes.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Of course, yes.]]

This - watching the bases. Watching all around the base, but not close. Be-cause men were involved - there was no need anyway, and they didn't want to. And so the watching was done from cars, roundabouts, key logistical locations, all round about between one and four miles out of Greenham. [[Yeah.|watching yeah]] [[Wow!|watching yeah]] [[Can I ask you a bit about the structure of Cruise Watch back in the day?|Can I ask you a bit about the structure of Cruise Watch back in the day?]]

And so different groups joined in from who were from, you know, Bristol, where they could get get home and have a few hours sleep before they needed to go to work, basically. And it was every night of the, every night of the year. [[Wow. Where were they, where were the convoys headed to? Was it Salisbury Plain?|Wow. Where were they, where were the convoys headed to? Was it Salisbury Plain?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

In the end, they had to settle on Salisbury Plain because that was the safest place for them. They did one or two other places, and one place in particular, called Longmoor Camp in Hampshire, near Liss. They went there early in November '84. And they got into a real pickle then because the policing was - they were really in a big panic. And so the policing was very bad and they put us all in a pit. [[Did you have experience of bad policing? And your group?|Really, is that, um, sort of, did you have that experience yourself? And your group?]] [[Can I ask you a bit about the structure of Cruise Watch back in the day?|Can I ask you a bit about the structure of Cruise Watch back in the day?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Campaign Atom. No, not really because I mean, I was involved with that anyway. [[Yeah.|Campaign Atom yeah]] [[No, I mean Greenham..|Campaign Atom yeah]]

Before when it was first announced in 1979 - well not 1979 because I was busy then. But the next year when - anyway, we were protesting against the idea of the Americans coming to have a base with nuclear weapons just down the road. So, so yeah, we we were involved in protests there. Yes. That's right. Because there was a an early warning system place near in Oxford. [[Right.|oxford warning right]] [[Keep listning quietly..|oxford warning right]]

And so we went to protest there. And we had a pace table, you know, for doing wallpaper and things, a wallpapering table. Because the news that was being given out about how it's going to make us safer, how cruise is all marvellous was that we would be able to get under a table, you see. That they could give us the early warning to get under the table. So I took all the children, it was 6 children. And we all got under this table. And, you know, made a good picture for the local rag and things. And then a guy came out. And it was, I remember him very clearly don’t remember anything about his face, but he had egg on his shirt. [[Ew.|Ew.]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Ew.]]

So, you know, there’s - isn't there some sort of saying about that you've got egg on your tie or whatever? So I thought, oh, well, we're off to a good start here. Poor man. Anyway, he told us all about how we could, you know, be safe once we got under the table. So I just pointed out to him that, you know, I’d got three 18 month old in nappies. And there was no - it was, it was a fiction. [[Course, yes.|Course, yes.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Course, yes.]]

It wasn't within my reality, and I didn't think it was in, for lots of different reasons in most people's reality either. I don't know what he thought his job was going to be. And so that's how I did get involved there. And then when I moved to Southampton, there was a whole gang of women with children who wanted to go to Greenham. And we did that. And there were a whole gang of students as well. Because Cruise Watch, Southampton Cruise Watch would come into the kitchen and get sorted out and find out what was going on. And, what spiky things were going to happen. And so - and we were the backup support for anybody who was out doing Cruise Watch. [[So you were in Oxford, and that's in Campaign Atom. And then from that you got invited to Greenham or you just decided to go?|So you were in Oxford, and that's in Campaign Atom. And then from that you got invited to Greenham or you just decided to go?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, just decided to go. But there was some kind of speakers going to be there, I think. But then after that I moved to Southampton in 1982 and linked up then with women here. And there were lots of women who are already going to Greenham and staying some time and not staying other times, they’ve got jobs and or university or whatever they were doing. And I know lots of women as well with small children. So Cruise Watch, had groups in Reading and Stroud, Whitney, Oxford, Southampton, Eastley, Winchester, all the sort of towns dotted around the base. [[Yes.|cruise watch groups yes]] [[Keep listening quietly...|cruise watch groups yes]] [[Can I ask you a bit about the structure of Cruise Watch back in the day?|Can I ask you a bit about the structure of Cruise Watch back in the day?]]

And each group was pretty autonomous. And we all decided what we do. But what we did was keep in touch by CB radio. [[Oh my god! Of course, before the days of - I was about to ask you that because the old telephone tree was a thing. But..|Oh my god! Of course, before the days of - I was about to ask you that because the old telephone tree was a thing. But]] [[You had CB radios, how cool is that?|But you had CB radios as well, how cool is that?]]

The telephone tree was used all the time, in the night and all the time. And there were lots of incidents when we were ringing in on the public telephone box. [[Yeah.|telephone box yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|telephone box yeah]]

Other Greenham support women who were, didn't go out to watch the convoys but were - coordinated the information that we were able to gather and get it out to the press and to the House of Commons as quickly as possible. And so when we did that, when we - so we did have to use the public telephones for when we were out. [[Yes.|telephones yes]] [[Keep listening quietly...|telephones yes]]

To ring the information in of you know, the the Ordnance Survey coordinates of where we'd found the convoy. [[But you had CB radios as well, how cool is that?|But you had CB radios as well, how cool is that?]] [[So, so you'd get the call in the middle of the night on your telephone tree, and then you'd hop in the car and off you go - is that right?|So, so you'd get the call in the middle of the night on your telephone tree, and then you'd hop in the car and off you go - is that right?]]

Yes, but the car ones were better because they had a better aerial. [[Yeah.|cb yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|cb yeah]]

And a battery that, you know, you plugged them into the cigarette lighter and - so they could run off that battery, off the car battery. But the handsets, in particular, well, they could all be monitored by the police. And the handsets in particular, were not good to use if you were getting close to the convoy, because they would just come pick you up. So you'd have to go out, into radio silence to get near. And then the other important thing to do when we were ringing in to say where the convoy, when we'd found the convoy where it was, was to erm tell the Greenham camp link woman and someone would get on their bike then and go and tell camp where it was. [[Right, okay. So they would collate the information that you gathered back at camp?|Right, okay. So they would collate the information that you gathered back at camp?]] [[Speaking to you, I've got images in my mind if you're the phone going in the middle of the night and you're grabbing your CB plug it into the cigarette lighter. Getting in the van. Did the van have a name or anything, or..?|Speaking to you, I've got images in my mind if you're the phone going in the middle of the night and you're grabbing your CB plug it into the cigarette lighter. Getting in the van. Did the van have a name or anything or?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

They would then act on it. And if they had the opportunity, they would go by car to where the convoy, as near as they could get to the convoy, and then do brilliant actions you see. Because they were, well experienced in all that, and we all got experienced in that. But the main thing was that you couldn't do anything about the convoy if you didn't know where it was. [[No, no.|No, no.]] [[So, so you'd get the call in the middle of the night on your telephone tree, and then you'd hop in the car and off you go - is that right?|So, so you'd get the call in the middle of the night on your telephone tree, and then you'd hop in the car and off you go - is that right?]]

And the political implication was that Michael Heseltine was the Minister for Defence Secretary of Defence at the time, said in the House of Commons that these convoys would melt into the countryside. [[Oh.|melt oh]] [[Keep listening quietly...|melt oh]]

Yeah. Yeah. Could scramble very fast with - from Southampton, probably between three and six cars would just go. [[Good grief.|Good grief.]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Good grief.]]

And oh, gosh, Steve Bell did.. [[The cartoonist?|The cartoonist?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|The cartoonist?]]

He did a brilliant cartoon of a convoy covered in snow and melting, a warhead carrier melting into the snow. That was very good. Yeah. [[So, so you'd get the call in the middle of the night on your telephone tree, and then you'd hop in the car and off you go - is that right?|So, so you'd get the call in the middle of the night on your telephone tree, and then you'd hop in the car and off you go - is that right?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

One of our cars was doing the watching anyway, and was already with it. And that was because we'd all meet up then. But yeah. We erm - people from all over would go. And people who were further away, would have - since the convoy was going to be there for a week would have time to organise themselves as well. But we would try to get - because in Southampton, we're quite close. We're sort of quite close to Salisbury as well as to Newbury. [[Yeah.|Watching yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Watching yeah]]

If we weren't actually out, we would try and - well we did get to different points along the route as the convoy came in, but particularly roundabouts. [[Right.|roundabouts right]] [[Keep listening quietly..|roundabouts right]]

We'd have things showing. [[Like a sticker in your window?|eye placard.]] [[Showing? You mean like a poster?|eye placard.]]

No, that was a big, a big placard, that would be on a roundabout. So as they come towards a roundabout and slow down, all the drivers, all the police, they would all have to see it. And I remember once a woman did a brilliant thing I thought. It was a big cardboard placard erm just of an eye, a painted eye, just one eye. And it didn't need to say anymore. [[Oh, they knew you were watching them!|Oh, they knew you were watching them!]] [[Wow..|Oh, they knew you were watching them!]]

Exactly. Yeah. The politics of it was that we needed to get it into the public arena. And so the each, the local press, were always interested. Well, to start with anyway, but also, if we got good photographs. [[Yeah.|photographs yeah]] [[So did it get featured in the local newspaper?|So did it get featured in the local newspaper?]]

And some photographers came along for the purpose, which was great. And so that was one thing to get it into the media. [[Definitely.|Definitely.]] [[So did it get featured in the local newspaper?|So did it get featured in the local newspaper?]]

Yes, yes, yes. [[Were they quite supportive to you and did they print it quite often?|Were they quite supportive to you and did they print it quite often?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Then also into the House of Commons. [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] [[So did it get featured in the local newspaper?|So did it get featured in the local newspaper?]]

They got bored of course, after a while. [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Different things would attract it. But there were some awful, awful incidents of police brutality against women. [[Really, is that, um, sort of, did you have that experience yourself? And your group?|Really, is that, um, sort of, did you have that experience yourself? And your group?]] [[Gosh, would you.. I know, it's probably a bit traumatic. Do you want to tell us what happened?|Gosh, would you I know, it's probably a bit traumatic. Do you want to tell us what happened?]]

Yes. [[Gosh, would you.. I know, it's probably a bit traumatic. Do you want to tell us what happened?|Gosh, would you I know, it's probably a bit traumatic. Do you want to tell us what happened?]] [[What about the wider community? Were they very much in favour of what you were doing? Or did you you know, what about the the Mums on the school run? What do they say to you? Did you get much support or are they against it?|what about the wider community? Were they very much in favour of what you were doing? Or did you you know, what about the the Mums on the school run? What do they say to you? Did you get much support or are they against it?]]

Oh, no, it was erm, just - it was commonplace. So the - you just had to decide whether you wanted, how far you wanted to take that bit of the protest. Because actually, while you're doing all that you're not doing something else that might be more useful. So you had to balance that. So one of the things we would do, we had a mini bus, which we used as a women's mini bus, from Southampton. And we would - when the convoy was coming off Salisbury Plain down these little bridle ways we would endeavour to put the van in the way and stop them. And lots of different things happened all the time. But on one occasion, we were extremely successful. And they couldn't get off the Plain without moving the van. They couldn't move the van because it was full of women all locked in. [[Did you use like bicycle locks?|Did you use like bicycle locks?]] [[Wow.|van wow]]

No, no, we were just locked in the vehicle. [[Oh, right. Got you.|Oh, right. Got you.]] [[Oh, I see.|Oh, right. Got you.]]

So it was very task orientated. But yeah, there was one occasion where they, they smashed the windows in the van to get us out. And they tried to actually drag Blue through the door, where the window - well, no, yeah. Because I think it's the side windows are not the same as - ah well they hadn't used to be - like a windscreen just would shatter and not hurt you. [[Yeah.|windscreen Yeah.]] [[She got hurt?|That's horrible. Like she could have been really badly injured.]]

Yeah, yeah, no, no, we hadn't got onto - well, that was a different kind of action. [[Yeah, that was later I suppose.|Yeah, that was later I suppose.]] [[Oh, I see.|Yeah, that was later I suppose.]]

It was all.. We did do sort of things that were for specific occasions that we.. we'd all sort of said we turn up and do it. But Cruise Watch was much more orientated to a task. And it was ongoing. It was one week, every month. And it was 24 hours a day for five days and nights. [[Wow.|van wow]]

But the door, windows were kind of more ordinary glass. [[That's horrible. Like she could have been really badly injured.|That's horrible. Like she could have been really badly injured.]] [[She got hurt?|That's horrible. Like she could have been really badly injured.]]

Exactly. So there was blood all over the car. Anyway I didn't quite know what was going on, because I was driving. So they took me out but I decided I didn't want to go through the window. So they smashed the window. And so they put their arm in and opened the window. Anyway. So when they got me out, actually, some of these incidents that have happened with police on top of people. [[Yes.|police on top yes]] [[Keep listening quietly..|police on top yes]]

Just reminded me so much what it feels like to be underneath a heavy policeman that you, you can't well, I couldn't do anything, I couldn't move. And so they, they - we all had arresting officers who sat on us or otherwise, you know, kept us out of the way and then they rammed the back of the van back into, you know, just a sort of street, not a street because it's on the Plain but a warnings, you know, like a lamp post, only a sign. [[Yeah, I got you.|Yeah, I got you.]] [[Yes.|sign yes]]

A road instruction sign. [[Yes.|sign yes]] [[Keep listening quietly..|sign yes]]

And drove the back of the vehicle in - well, I mean, there were numerous incidents, but these are the kind of things that they would, the extremes they would go to. [[Yes, yeah. And that was your van was it Di?|Yes, yeah. And that was your van was it Di?]] [[Oh, wow.|Van Oh, wow.]]

Yes, yes. [[Oh, wow.|Van Oh, wow.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Van Oh, wow.]]

That was the first van. We then had another van which lasted a bit longer. But that first van is in Bradford Peace Museum. [[Is it really? Has it still got blood on the seats?|Is it really? Has it still got blood on the seats?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I don't know about that. Yeah, anyway, um, so that was the sort of thing. But it also meant that women then at camp would know, by being able to give them the, you know, time and location of the departure, they could go check that out. But they could recon on it being stopped a few times en route either by women from the camp coming to meet it or by Cruise Watch. I mean, or just, just local people coming out because they didn't want it in their streets. [[No.|not on our streets]] [[Keep istening quietly..|not on our streets]]

The primary school and the golf club and all the rest of it. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Funny you should say that because we started a group in Southampton called Families Against the Bomb. [[Yes.|families against the bomb yes]] [[Keep listening quietly..|families against the bomb yes]]

And then there was someone called, oh god I forgotten her name. Lady Olga Maitland. [[Oh yes rings a bell.|Oh yes rings a bell.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Oh yes rings a bell.]]

She started a Tory pro-nuclear weapons group called, probably Women for Peace or something like that. I don't think it was as obvious as that but anyway. And then.. and that was against Greenham, they purely started that to be an an alternative. [[That was a very sneaky trick.|that was a very sneaky trick.]] [[Sneaky!|that was a very sneaky trick.]]

Yes. And the Quakers in particular, were absolutely brilliant. [[Yeah.|quakers yeah]] [[Yes?|quakers yeah]]

Very, very supportive. And, you know, coming from just everywhere. Christchurch, and near Bournemouth and all the London women. And at the end of the deployment Manchester, women, you know, would all have time to get there. It just depended on their lifestyles and what they could fit in, really. But it was the same for, same for women who were living at the camp as well. They had commitments, in terms of court cases, and shopping, and, you know, just like life going on. But mainly the bailiffs and keeping up with their own court cases. And so there was a lot of work done there, as well as surviving in the open. [[It was a tough life?|It was a tough life.]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. But what I think is interesting about Cruise Watch was because after we got rid of cruise.. Once we'd got the treaty, then we knew that that's what was required. You need a treaty to progress legally and internationally and in a structured, democratic way that will stick. [[Yeah.|treaty yeah]] [[Treaty?|treaty yeah]]

Which of course we had with Gorbachev. That was a key thing. It’s, a lot of things came together at the time of Greenham. [[Yeah.|ICAN yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|ICAN yeah]]

And so there was this treaty. So now we've got a situation - I don't know if you've heard about the ICAN treaty? But there's a treaty making nuclear weapons illegal that's been worked on for a long time, and has now been accepted by the UN. And in the UN, they had this year got 50, think it's 50 countries have signed up to a non.. to making nuclear weapons illegal. It's a kind of extension, if you like to the Non-Proliferation Treaty. [[Yes.|non proliferation yes]] [[Keep listening quietly..|non proliferation yes]]

And that's the same forum as the United Nations and so on. But it's been extremely successful, and the dribble of countries now.. that are still signing in. Of course, we don't expect the nuclear states and there's only, you know, half a dozen or so of them, to sign it. But that’s actually what you need. That's what's required is a treaty. What we want to really say now, I think, is that we knew at the end of Greenham that we were had all sorts of means, which were outside previous protests. [[Yes.|United nations yes]] [[Keep listening quietly...|United nations yes]]

To reach a situation where Cruise was a failure. In fact, Cruise Watch wrote, a erm - I can't think what it was called. Anyway, a report basically listing all the failures under different headings, failure in a democracy failure, militarily, failure in secrecy and security. You know, every heading they tried to meet goals in they, they failed. And so that's what we need. Now, with getting this treaty that already exists, signed up - it’s an opportunity to publicise it and say, we know where we're going. It's not just you know, that we don't like Nuclear Weapons very much and we we want miraculously for them to to be resolved and not have any. We actually know the route. I now I'm now at Aldermaston Women's Peace Camp and have been for many years and Aldermaston is where the British nuclear weapons are developed and built and they go irregularly, but about every two months, sometimes every month or two - anyway, from Burghfield, which is the new twin base with Aldermaston. So, research is done at Aldermaston. At Aldermaston the nuclear component and the high explosive components are all manufactured. [[Goodness.|Aldermaston goodness]] [[That's great that you're, I mean, you're obviously still active now.|that's great that you're, I mean, you're obviously still active now.]]

But they're not put together at Aldermaston because Aldermaston is a power keg of Nuclear Risk. [[Right.|Aldermaston right]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Aldermaston right]]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. [[So your activism has lasted your whole life Di, it's amazing.|So your activism has lasted your whole life Di, it's amazing.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Horrendous, horrendous, serious place of stored plutonium and goodness knows what. So any kind of disaster there would be unimaginable. [[Well, yeah, I mean, that's great that you're, I mean, you're obviously still active now..||that's great that you're, I mean, you're obviously still active now.]] [[So your activism has lasted your whole life Di, it's amazing.|So your activism has lasted your whole life Di, it's amazing.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

As well, there's always something to do you see, if you sit still and think, oh well, we failed, or we didn't do that, or they still got nuclear weapons. And it's it's not true. There's a lot - there’s a lot we can do. So at Burghfield, there's a Burghfield watch. And so when the convoy is - Burghfield is the nearby base where these two components under very strict conditions are put together. [[Oh..|Burghfield cool]] [[Cool.|Burghfield cool]]

And it's the most horrendously high risk job in the world. Imagine. So all the countries that have nuclear weapons have this task of in the end, putting the high high explosive into the warhead. So that the two things will work. Yeah. Burghfield. So that's where the warheads put together. And from then, this is now this week, last week, anytime they then have to be developed, deployed to the submarines. [[Of course, yeah.|Of course, yeah.]] [[Oh, do you go and visit there?|Oh, do you go and visit there?]]

1986. And it's still going. [[Oh, do you go and visit there?|Oh, do you go and visit there?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

Yes, yes. Well it, Aldermaston is not the kind of place where you want to live outside. [[Right. |not the kind of place right]] [[Yeah.|Dangerous yeah]]

It's too high risk. And so we have a camp and have had a regular camp every month for a long weekend. [[Right.|regular camp right]] [[And when you go there, are there women there that you know from back in the day from Greenham or Cruise Watch? Like seeing all your old friends again?|And when you go there, are there women there that you know from back in the day from Greenham or Cruise Watch? Like seeing all your old friends again?]]

It's too dangerous. [[Yeah.|Dangerous yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Dangerous yeah]]

For 20, 30 years or something like that. But now, with all this pandemic business, we're just doing it by zoom. But this year, yes, we shall be back at camp. And what we want to do is for women who are interested in protest now about nuclear weapons about this new proposed warhead that you might have heard of in the news.. [[Yeah..|zoom yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|zoom yeah]]

There are. But there are other other women who've come along since which is great. [[Did you feel like you made some lifelong friends through the movement?|Did you feel like you made some lifelong friends through the movement?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And this is a very good time the government have have given us, us on a plate that they want to build, have a bigger stockpile after it's been reduced, and reduced and reduced, because partly because it's been effective to say, well, you don't need all these, you only need one. [[Yeah.|only need one yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..||only need one yeah]]

Because they're hugely, hugely more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb. So if women want to come to Aldermaston Women's Peace Camp, it's the second weekend of every month, as soon as the - and we stay really from Friday night, till Sunday, in the summer sun. We stay a bit shorter in the winter. But it's, it's a very good focus, we're talking about current nuclear issues with women and watching the base and being a witness to what goes on. [[When you go there, are there women there that you know from back in the day from Greenham or Cruise Watch? Like seeing all your old friends again?|And when you go there, are there women there that you know from back in the day from Greenham or Cruise Watch? Like seeing all your old friends again?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. And it means that if we have differences of opinions about things, erm we know that underlying that is this common strength of working together. So it means we can be quite honest and really not have to pussyfoot around. We know that we can say what we're thinking. [[Yes.|say what were thinking yes]] [[Keep listening quietly..||say what were thinking yes]]

And then we'll say, Well, now it's your turn. What do you think kind of thing? [[Yeah, respecting each other's opinions, even though you might agree to differ.|Yeah, respecting each other's opinions, even though you might agree to differ.]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. Yes. It's just different ways of going about the same thing. Basically. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. Yes. [[How did you organise?|How did you organise?]] [[Did you have like a meeting, then like weekly or monthly meetings where you all got together?|Did you have like a meeting, then like weekly or monthly meetings where you all got together?]]

By disorganising. Because it was such a flexible, fluid thing to start with anyway, we didn't know which way which road, how we would ever find these vehicles. But as we got used to it, we could predict some of the, there were - they had limited options. [[Right.|disorganising right]] [[Did you have like a meeting, then like weekly or monthly meetings where you all got together?|Did you have like a meeting, then like weekly or monthly meetings where you all got together?]]

We had a debrief meeting. But that's all. We didn't have any planning meetings because it was a network. There would be no way of having a complicated - I mean we did have big events which were put out on the phone trees and there were posters and peoples phone numbers. So we did all that as well - but particularly in the summer on Salisbury Plain and then that was great loads of people came to protest. And that was really good. But the actual work of finding out where the convoy was going we wouldn't have been able to do that if we - I mean communications were intercepted. They were doing their job, we were doing ours. [[Did you have your phone tapped?|Did you have your phone tapped?]] [[How did you know if your commmunications were intercepted?|But could you tell when you picked it up, because it sounded a bit funny?]]

Started off with just a few police escorting a military convoy out. [[Did you have like a meeting, then like weekly or monthly meetings where you all got together?|Did you have like a meeting, then like weekly or monthly meetings where you all got together?]] [[Did you have planning meetings?|Did you have like a meeting, then like weekly or monthly meetings where you all got together?]]

Yes. Yeah. [[But could you tell when you picked it up, because it sounded a bit funny?|But could you tell when you picked it up, because it sounded a bit funny?]] [[How did you know if your commmunications were intercepted?|But could you tell when you picked it up, because it sounded a bit funny?]]

Oh, well, there were lots of different ways of doing and different things. And I mean, I was in a telephone.. when we have to actually ring in and tell someone who couldn't communicate by CB. And I was giving the location of the where the convoy was moving. This was in Newbury, when it was just setting out. And a big burly policeman came into the phone box, remember red phone boxes? [[Yes, yes. |red phone boxes Yes, yes.]] [[No..|red phone boxes Yes, yes.]] [[I've seen them in pictures and things.|red phone boxes Yes, yes.]] [[But you had CB radios, how cool is that?|But you had CB radios as well, how cool is that?]]

He came in and just put his fingers on the receiver head and cut me off. [[Oh!|cut me off Oh!]] [[No!|cut me off Oh!]]

And he was very big. I couldn't get out of the telephone box until he moved. But you know, just - they were doing barmy things spontaneously just as we were. But there was so much spontaneous.. erm.. because the the golden rules. We had golden rules. [[Golden rules?|Will you tell me what they were?]] [[Will you tell me what they were?|Will you tell me what they were?]]

Yes. They were non-negotiable. They were non-violence at every level. So that's verbal non-violence and physical non-violence. Other than that, and to erm, be non-hierarchical and to be erm, pro women. [[Yeah. Exactly.|Yeah. Exactly.]] [[That's so clear and useful.|Yeah. Exactly.]] [[And I know you had men in Cruise Watch, that was the difference wasn't it. Did you have any trouble with any of the men? And if so what did you do?|And I know you had men in Cruise Watch, that was the difference wasn't it. Did you have any trouble with any of the men? And if so what did you do?]]

If women wanted to do something they had first go. [[And I know you had men in Cruise Watch, that was the difference wasn't it. Did you have any trouble with any of the men? And if so what did you do?|And I know you had men in Cruise Watch, that was the difference wasn't it. Did you have any trouble with any of the men? And if so what did you do?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I think in different groups, probably. Because a lot were associated, obviously, with a local peace group, and other local peace group meetings, which would be doing their thing. And anyway, they might arrange to meet separately as a group and arrange things too I don't know. But we none of us knew really what we were going to be doing most of the time.. [[Yeah.|none of us knew yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|none of us knew yeah]]

One of the things that did cross over was something called gloop. [[Gloop?|What’s that? ]] [[What’s that?|What’s that? ]]

Well gloop was something that you wanted to mark the convoy with, to, be-cause, the - when it went back into the base, for example, the USAF will say, well, you know, they, ‘Nobody knows where we went,’ or ‘We didn't do that.’ And it was loads of silly things. If the cruise launchers had paint dripping down them.. [[Yes.|gloop yes]] [[Keep listening quietly..|gloop yes]]

Or some other strange stuff, which we called gloop - which would often be last night's dinner and mixed in with porridge and anything that would stick you know. And then - and so that was certainly done by Cruise Watch groups and also by women's groups who came from camp and as the convoy came, you know, from, you know, 20 miles away from Greenham, they’d suddenly come across a gang of women. And the vehicles will be marked and, on they'd go. [[Fantastic. Must have been a wonderful feeling, catching one and blocking it like that.|Fantastic. Must have been a wonderful feeling, catching one and blocking it like that.]] [[That's amazing!|Fantastic. Must have been a wonderful feeling, catching one and blocking it like that.]]

I mean, it was a bit aggravating, you know, spending hours in police stations, and then court cases and that sort of thing. And a lot of women as you know, went to prison. And so did men for protest against the convoy, because we refused to pay the fines, because we didn't accept that we were guilty. [[Did you go to prison?|Did you pay your fines? Or, or did you take the, do time? What did you do?]] [[Did you pay your fines? Or, or did you take the, do time? What did you do?|Did you pay your fines? Or, or did you take the, do time? What did you do?]]

Um, I did - I went to prison most of the time. I paid the fine in the early days, perhaps once or twice, but I can't remember doing that. But I think you could, I think you could pay it sort of well I don't know a pound a week or something like that, you know, we would do all sorts of barmy, things that were really aggravating, but mostly I didn't in the end pay fines. [[And what was your experience of prison?|And what was your experience of prison? What was it like?]] [[What was it like?|And what was your experience of prison? What was it like?]]

Um, the hardest thing was meeting other women in for the most ridiculous things - non payment, television licence, all that sort of stuff. Absolutely scandalous. And then there were other women who well, one woman who had yes, I think anyway, I think she had she'd been abused and was used by a man, her partner. And anyway, so she was in prison for manslaughter. And I think well - she was brilliant, actually. So meeting women who were in prison was the most painful thing. [[Yeah. Hearing their stories.|Yeah. Hearing their stories.]] [[Because of their stories?|Yeah. Hearing their stories.]] [[It's just generalised oppression really isn't it?|It's just generalised oppression really isn't it?]]

Yes. [[It's just generalised oppression really isn't it?|It's just generalised oppression really isn't it?]] [[And what about your, um, your folks? Did you have someone who'd pick up the slack while you're inside?|Yeah. And what about your, um, your family? You must your husband, Paul, he picked up the slack while you're inside and looked after the kids?]]

Yes. Absolutely. And, and awful things as well. I was in once with an older woman who didn't speak English. I don't know which of the Asian languages was hers, but possibly Urdu depends whereabouts she came from, you know, which community she came from in this country. Because in Holloway, people went to - yeah, you went to Holloway from quite a lot of areas because there aren't a lot of women's prisons. [[So you were in Holloway?|So you were in Holloway?]] [[And what about your, um, your folks? Did you have a someone who'd pick up the slack while you're inside?|Yeah. And what about your, um, your family? You must your husband, Paul, he picked up the slack while you're inside and looked after the kids?]]

Mostly. Yeah, yeah. And so she didn't speak any English. And I didn't speak any Urdu and we were sharing a cell. But we found someone you could - they had tiny, tiny little windows in a narrow windows in Holloway, in the new building, I wasn't in the old building, which was horrendous. But in the modern building, they were just these like these slits. And you could shout out onto the courtyard and manage to locate someone who could translate for her. But it involved enormous lots of shouting up and down the kind of courtyard out through the window and then getting the message back again. But, you know, it was a terrible situation for her to be in. [[Yes, yeah.|Yes, yeah.]] [[And what about your, um, your folks? Did you have a someone who'd pick up the slack while you're inside?|Yeah. And what about your, um, your family? You must your husband, Paul, he picked up the slack while you're inside and looked after the kids?]]

Yes, he did. And and he repaired the vehicles - in the the front garden we had, because most of the vehicles were, you know, old or certainly not new vehicles. And they had a rough time on Salisbury Plain. And they had a rough time with the civilian police. [[Yes. |repaired vehicles yes]] [[And did you have like CND symbols on your van or did you go incognito?|And did you have like CND symbols on your van or did you go incognito?]]

She'd been set up by some men. [[Oh had she? How awful.|Oh had she? How awful.]] [[Unsurprising.|Oh had she? How awful.]]

As a carrier. [[And what about your, um, your folks? Did you have a someone who'd pick up the slack while you're inside?|Yeah. And what about your, um, your family? You must your husband, Paul, he picked up the slack while you're inside and looked after the kids?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And the MOD police but the civilian police more so. [[Really?|MOD really]] [[And did you have like CND symbols on your van or did you go incognito?|And did you have like CND symbols on your van or did you go incognito?]]

Well, none of the vehicles were incognito. We could have symbols on if we wanted and whatever we wanted to do. But we had Cruise Watch stickers I think in the back. [[Yeah. |cruise watch stickers]] [[Keep listening quietly...|cruise watch stickers]]

Yeah. So they all needed repairing when we came back after a week. So Paul would do that. Ready for the next, next dispersal. [[And did you have like CND symbols on your van or did you go incognito?|And did you have like CND symbols on your van or did you go incognito?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

To make sure they, well that was a bit of a protection really because then they knew we were not going to do anything violent. [[Yes.|Violent yes]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Violent yes]]

Or stupid. [[Yes.|Or stupid yes.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Or stupid yes.]]

So because the vehicles would go very fast, quite fast - the convoys - and it was dangerous. In the middle of the night, no street lights and all this. [[Speeding along. Anything could have happened.|Speeding along. Anything could have happened.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Speeding along. Anything could have happened.]]

So that was the other thing about, our driving had to be non-violent. Which means we would not do - we would change our minds and not do something that we'd decided to do if it looked as though it would be dangerous, for whatever reason, weather conditions and all sorts of things. [[Were you always the driver then? You must be a very good driver!|Were you always the driver then? You must be a very good driver!]] [[Wow, I can just see it now, it must have been amazing. So, so you got a call. If it was, you'd have.. So it was one week 'on' that you were on duty once a month - is that right?|Wow, I can just see it now, it must have been amazing. So, so you got a call. If it was, you'd have.. So it was one week 'on' that you were on duty once a month - is that right?]]

And I was mostly yeah. But I did go in other people's vehicles sometimes as well. Yeah. If I didn't have the van, but the van was useful because we could get so many women in. [[Wow, I can just see it now, it must have been amazing. So, so you got a call. If it was, you'd have.. So it was one week 'on' that you were on duty once a month - is that right?|Wow, I can just see it now, it must have been amazing. So, so you got a call. If it was, you'd have.. So it was one week 'on' that you were on duty once a month - is that right?]] [[When you, you, you’d set off in the in the van with your women friends would, would you call that an affinity group? When you all went off in the middle of the night?|when you, you, you’d set off in the in the van with your women friends would, would you call that an affinity group? When you all went off in the middle of the night?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Um, no, we would do - well, there were two things. That convoy was watched, the base was watched 365 days a year effectively. And to start with, because we didn't know what would happen, [[Hmm.|365 Hmm.]] [[Keep listening quietly...|365 Hmm.]]

So it was a lot of work just to watch the base. But then after that, they would come out about once a month, but we didn't know when. [[Yeah.|Watch the base yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Watch the base yeah]]

And so every night the con.. the base still had to be watched. But for example, when they’d just come back from a dispersal, they wouldn't be going out the next week, because like us, they all had to recover. [[So you got a bit of downtime?|So you got a bit of downtime?]] [[A lot of women got terribly injured didn't they, protesting.|A lot of women got terribly injured didn't they, protesting.]]

Sort of, and then then it would all start up again. And there were lots of erm really good sessions when the convoy was returning because it would very often pretty well always go back in through the main gate at Greenham. [[Yeah.|convoy returning]] [[Keep listening quietly..|convoy returning]]

Absolutely. [[How about yourself? Did you sustain any physical injuries?|How about yourself? Did you sustain any physical injuries?]] [[Were you ever hurt?|How about yourself? Did you sustain any physical injuries?]]

And they'd go past The Swan pub roundabout. [[Yeah.|swan pub roundabout yeah]] [[You knew for sure that they'd be going past that roundabout within a certain hour?|You knew for sure that they'd be going past that roundabout within a certain hour?]]

And that was a good focus for people to come from lots of different directions who hadn't been out on the Cruise Watch so far, but on the return, because we could give a lot more information about. [[You knew for sure that they'd be going past that roundabout within a certain hour?|You knew for sure that they'd be going past that roundabout within a certain hour?]] [[You knew when they would be there?|You knew for sure that they'd be going past that roundabout within a certain hour?]]

Yes, pretty well. And if they change, if they change, they got to the point where they couldn't change it, because they tried every route. And they got into a worse pickle by using kind of, trying to use devious routes or something. So erm so yeah. And that was very good, because then after they finally cleared the roundabout at The Swan, they then have to go to camp, and it will start up again. Of course, with camp women and.. you know, women would climb on the vehicles and ride into the base with them and all sorts of things. [[Lying in the road?|Lying in the road?]] [[A lot of women got terribly injured didn't they, protesting.|A lot of women got terribly injured didn't they, protesting.]]

But the blockades were, had to be extremely careful because the USAF drivers were very gung ho they were psyched up to take this. These, in that view, you wouldn't be, they wouldn't be able to do their job if they weren't. And it's, to some extent, it's the same as I described with the British nuclear weapons now, where they put the high explosive and the nuclear components together that - psyching someone up to actually do that is a professional job. Yeah, people to do that. And they don't do it very often. One person doesn't do it very often. And so it's just a strange world of nuclear mentality. All comes down to the nuts and bolts of the weapons and the dispersal, planning, the logistics, all these things. That's what it depends on. Things are a bit different now. And that's, of course, why they've got them on submarines. But they still get into awful pickles one way or another. So it’s still a high risk strategy. [[A lot of women got terribly injured didn't they, protesting.|A lot of women got terribly injured didn't they, protesting.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Not seriously. Oh, yes, I did. Once, yes. That was at Aldermaston women's peace camp. [[Oh, can you tell us about that?|Oh, can you tell us about that? What happened?]] [[What happened?|Oh, can you tell us about that? What happened?]]

Well, I don't know why the gates suddenly opened and there were people coming in and out or something. Anyway, so we all jumped up from the camp and went in. And they were shutting the gates at the same time. And this policeman just picked me up and threw me out. Well, I was much lighter than he anticipated, I think because I'm not.. and I landed on my head. [[Oh, my god.|Oh, my god.]] [[Horrendous. Did you have concussion?|Horrendous. Did you have concussion?]]

So I went to hospital then. But I mean, people were quite seriously hurt in lots of circumstances. [[Yeah.|seriously hurt yeah]] [[Horrendous. Did you have concussion?|Horrendous. Did you have concussion?]]

I didn't. I think I might have done for a few seconds. But it wasn't that serious. But because, you know, you're very vulnerable when you're living out of doors in a sleeping bag, and you've got to make quick decisions, and you've got to be able to look after yourself. And I didn't, I wasn't in that state. And I didn't want the other women at camp to have to look after me. So anyway, it was all decided, you know, I'd go to the hospital, which was fine. And it was very - I was very impressed. They kept me under the nurse's station all night. To the monitor my, you know, my pulse just kept going down. [[Oh, scary. And did you erm.. That was a military policeman, I suppose wasn't it? So there was no come back?|Oh, scary. And did you erm. I mean, you didn't have any come? That was a military policeman, I suppose wasn't it? So there was no come back?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. [[Horrendous. Did you have concussion?|Horrendous. Did you have concussion?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was the MOD police. So there was different, with the er - and the same with the current warhead convoys. There's, first of all, there's the all the people involved in it are armed. There's no question about that. Even the motorcycle outriders have got handguns, because they couldn't manage a big gun. But the convoy is escorted by Marines. And they're, they've, you know, all got machine guns. And then so there's the Marines. There's the military police, when they get onto the site, the red caps, there's the squaddies the - in the end, they had to have UK forces guarding the Americans guarding their vehicles. So there were a lot of a lot of people involved. The civilian police, obviously. And yeah, but they were all all the military. Obviously it works by obeying orders. [[Yes.|military yes]] [[Keep listening quietly..|military yes]]

And so to a certain extent, you could, you know, predict what they would all do. I don't remember any, any of anyone going beyond the brief. So their brief was to stop us. [[Yeah. |brief yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly...|brief yeah]]

And I said to a policeman one day, you die for this? Oh, it was to do with Michael Heseltine. This was, you know, in association with a convoy going out. Because we went to, before they put up these big gates and fences at Downing Street. And there was just a little barrier, so we could just leg it over the barrier. And the police, police man grabbed me and was very rough with me. And so I said, ‘You’d die for this man, wouldn’t you?’ And he said, ‘Yes.’ [[Oh, really?|Oh, really?]] [[Yeah.|die for yeah]]

No question. He didn't have to think twice. Yeah. [[Yeah.|die for yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly...|die for yeah]]

And the same with the same with a lot of the military. They're trained - the military are trained, obviously, to die. And meeting the young squaddies, you know, in the middle of the night in the middle of the woods on Salisbury Plain. You know, I just, they, they just have to stop us doing whatever we were doing. But they, I think their their orders were not to touch us. But if we ran away, they would run after us and catch us. But if we didn't run away then they would be.. And I can remember saying to one ‘What would your mother say? Look at you!’ And, I mean, they could see the funny side of it as well if there was some, you know, humanity there somewhere. But for a lot of people it is a way of life and they think that well they, they do as they are told. But there were quite a lot of police I think who didn't necessarily support the weapons and the American convoy being out on the British roads. [[Oh, yes.|Oh, yes.]] [[Yeah. So just to recap what you said then. There's there was some police who didn't agree with American weapons being on British roads, is that what you said?|Yeah. So just to recap what you said then. There's there was some police who didn't agree with American weapons being on British roads, is that what you said?]]

They wouldn't obey anybody really. They would do what they want to do. [[Yeah. So just to recap what you said then. There's there was some police who didn't agree with American weapons being on British roads, is that what you said?|Yeah. So just to recap what you said then. There's there was some police who didn't agree with American weapons being on British roads, is that what you said?]] [[Scary.|Scary.]]

Yes, but they did their job. [[They wouldn't do anything about that. They might just privately think that?|They wouldn't do anything about that. They might just privately think that?]] [[Scary.|Scary.]]

Yeah. And I had, you know, and other people did as well - we sometimes had to pull the police out of the way. [[So they didn't hurt themselves?|So they didn't hurt themselves?]] [[So they could have been killed if it wasn't for your humanity?|So they could have been killed if it wasn't for your humanity?]]

Yes, yes. Because some of them were very often of risk. I mean, I've described you sometimes there being a lot of protesters around a roundabout, yeah, the convoy would be endeavouring to get round the roundabout when it was going quite slowly, without being stopped, or they didn't know what was going to happen. And so the police had to face the protesters, and therefore have their backs on a roundabout going round to the convoy. [[Scary.|Scary.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

So that they wouldn't get caught by the convoy. [[So they could have been killed if it wasn't for your humanity?|So they could have been killed if it wasn't for your humanity?]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. Well, we all could. We were all in it together at that point. Yes. There's been no distinction that they would have been run over as well as us. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh, yeah, well, we all had, we all have CB handles. [[What was yours?|What was yours?]] [[Did you have one?|What was yours?]]

Bracken. [[Okay, Bracken!|Okay, Bracken!]] [[What a lovely handle!|Okay, Bracken!]]

When we first started, everybody had herbs, which is lovely. But I didn’t.. I didn't get into the herbs. And anyway, they were all gone. I couldn't think of a herb by that time and anyway, my car at the time was brown. So I called it, so it was Bracken. But um oh, yes. When the convoy was spotted the CB message by that time we, didn't have to keep radio silence. [[Okay.|bracken Okay.]] [[Okay.|we could put it out]]

We got it. We could put it out. And they couldn't do anything about it. It was done. [[What happened next?|we could put it out]] [[Okay.|we could put it out]]

So there'd be a call come out, ‘Calling all herbs, calling all herbs, calling all herbs.’ And you'd just start the engine get going and then get the directions where you were going to, once you've set out, you know, got down the road. [[Yeah. Well, it's a fantastic example of decentralised organisation being very effective, isn't it?|Yeah. Well, it's a fantastic example of decentralised organisation being very effective, isn't it?]] [[Amazing.|like minded people amazing]]

Yes, yes, it was a good network of people like minded people with the same objective, and with the same commitments to not hurting anybody. [[Amazing.|like minded people amazing]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

But we have to bring it back up to date, because there are still convoys of British nuclear weapons going up and down A34, the M4, the M40, the M42, the M6 and sometimes up the A1M and then crossing over because they're all aiming to get to Coalport which is the storage base for nuclear weapons in this country in Scotland. [[Right. |Scotland Right. ]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And Coalport is near Faslane. [[Yes.|coalport yes]] [[Keep listening quietly...|coalport yes]]

It's the submarine base for the submariners who go out and take the weapons out to sea and are supposedly prepared then to fire them if they're told to. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

The Cruise Watch archives, the paper archives and, and, and artefacts as well are going to Bradford, Bradford peace.. Bradford University. [[Right.|bradford right]] [[Yeah.|bradford yeah]]

And so all the all the things to do with the INF Treaty that we did, are there now at the Bradford Peace Museum. Yes, but they’re, they’re, they’re - the archives are stored at the moment. And we're still gathering them. And the other thing is that we can't gather them, in except to say, except to put what we want to put into the public arena. [[Yeah.|bradford yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|bradford yeah]]

And there's many things that we've got a 50 year rule on from our point of view, which we won't put in the archives anywhere yet. [[Oh, that sounds interesting. There's some secret missions that you went on!|Oh, that sounds interesting. There's some secret missions that you went on!]] [[Secrets?|Oh, that sounds interesting. There's some secret missions that you went on!]]

Not really. It's just people are still active. [[Yeah, of course. Yeah.|Yeah, of course. Yeah.]] [[Oh I see!|Yeah, of course. Yeah.]]

So, I mean, it's in many ways, it's a - if the police, you know, check on our records, then they know what they're dealing with. They, they know that erm, we may be uncooperative, we may sit down or refuse to move, they might have to drag us around a road or a police station or somewhere, but we're not going to hurt them. [[No.|not hurt no]] [[Keep listening quietly..||not hurt no]]

And we're not going to hurt anybody else. [[Were you connected to people in other countries at greenham?|australian visitors convo tweaked for Twine]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

At Greenham there was a constant constant stream of visitors from all over the world. And, you know, some of us have kept in touch for whatever reason. And there are Greenham Women now living, working on nuclear issues in Australia, more to do with mining, uranium mining. [[Yeah.|uranium mining]] [[Keep listening quietly..|uranium mining]]

And the same in the States that part of the Greenham Women everywhere, as it came to be called nobody had thought of that term really, it kind of evolved. And I don't know who who coined it really.. probably London women I should imagine. I don't know. But I don't know what I was going to say about it really. [[Ask Di McDonald another question..|Di McDonald]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. [[You would. Yeah. And it would generally be the same people every time?|You would. Yeah. And it would generally be the same people every time?]] [[Did you drive around and pick up everyone?|Wonderful. So when you erm - taking, taking it back to the exciting moments that you set off in the van, did you drive around and pick up the girls, then the the students?]]

Yes. And we did a lot of training. [[Ah, yeah.|training Ah, yeah.]] [[Training?|training Ah, yeah.]]

Because, you know, the the automatic response if somebody grabs you is to try and get away. [[Yeah.|Get away yeah]] [[Ok.|Get away yeah]]

And erm you didn't stand a chance of doing that. And in any case it was an offence, so you got arrested for trying to get away. So we’d - and law as well. I mean, we did enormous amount of work on law. Defended ourselves in court a lot of the time but also, you know, needed to know.. [[You needed to up-skill really didn't need to be effective as a group.|You needed to up-skill really didn't need to be effective as a group.]] [[Would you have, like, NVDA training sessions and things like that for new members?|Yeah. So would you like to have like an NVDA training sessions and things like that for new members?]]

Absolutely. [[Yeah. So would you have, like, an NVDA training sessions and things like that for new members?|Yeah. So would you like to have like an NVDA training sessions and things like that for new members?]] [[Did you take NVDA training?|Yeah. So would you like to have like an NVDA training sessions and things like that for new members?]]

Yeah. Yeah. And we would go and do them for new groups wherever they were. [[So when you set off in the van, did you drive around and pick up everyone?|Wonderful. So when you erm - taking, taking it back to the exciting moments that you set off in the van, did you drive around and pick up the girls, then the the students?]]

No, there was quite an effective telephone tree, and everybody would just arrive at a starting point. And we move around various vehicles and who was going with which vehicle and how many were around. And then just also.. the main thing was speed. [[Yeah. So you did you all meet in a car park or something, a load of vehicles, and pedestrians would get there on their bikes or whatever?|Yeah. So you did you all meet in a car park or something, a load of vehicles, and pedestrians would get there on their bikes or whatever?]] [[Did you, were you all singing along in the van when you went along?|Did you, were you all singing along in the van when you went along?]]

Yeah, lots of people would ride bikes, but other cars that were coming to meetthe other cars could pick up on route as well. It was a big mixture. [[Did you, were you all singing along in the van when you went along?|Did you, were you all singing along in the van when you went along?]] [[Well, it's been most inspiring, talking to you Di and I mean, I really feel like I've got an insight into that very exciting time.|Well, it's been most inspiring, talking to you Di and I mean, I really feel like I've got an insight into that very exciting time.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

No, not really, that was more a relaxing, enjoyable time. Except if we were singing to the military and the police. [[(Singing) We all come from the gardens!|(Singing) We all come from the gardens!]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Oh how lovely, that's so great.]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

(Both singing) We are witness to your war crimes, and I will remember your face. And it would just go on and on like that. That's a very good ear! [[Oh how lovely, that's so great.|Oh how lovely, that's so great.]] [[Ahh...|Oh how lovely, that's so great.]] [[Sing another song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

And singing in prison was a big thing too. [[Of course.|singing in prison]] [[Kept the spirits up I should think.|Kept the spirits up I should think.]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

Because it was something that we could do. And I don't know if it entertained other women, but it was. [[Kept the spirits up I should think.|Kept the spirits up I should think.]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

For them as well. Yes. Because one one place - when I was in prison with another woman, although we didn't know until we got there that we were there for - I mean, there was so many court cases going on at the same time. And if we went to court in our own towns, and not at Newbury, then we wouldn’t meet until we've suddenly found we were all in the same prison. Anyway, there's two of us who refused to pack war toys, which were space.. things for invading by space. [[I know what you mean guns and things. Yeah.|I know what you mean guns and things. Yeah.]] [[Ew.|Spaceship Ah!]]

No, it was actually a spaceship! [[Ah!|Spaceship Ah!]] [[Oh..|Spaceship Ah!]]

With guns all around it. Anyway so we wouldn't do that. That was the, that was work that was on offer. And we refused to do it. So we had a terrible time. And we were put in strip cells and in solitary confinement and.. [[How awful.|How awful.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|How awful.]]

But we were both put, they I mean, they just moved us to kind of area where they put difficult people, I suppose. Difficult women. And so we could sing to each other across the corridor. [[Oh, good for you. I mean, the songs are really so uplifting - aren’t they?|Oh, good for you. I mean, the songs are really so uplifting - aren’t they? Oh.]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

My main message is really to do with now and to do with what we must do now because the announcement of the upgrade of the British nuclear warhead, along with the idea of having a treaty actually going around the UN to get rid of nuclear weapons - which is not just an airy fairy thing, it’s an international legal thing, in the same way that you know that there are other international legal things that are adhered to. [[Yes.|treaty yes]] [[Keep listening quietly|treaty yes]] [[Can you tell me more about that?|ICAN yeah]]

And so this one can reach - has the same status. But it has to have - it has to be signed by all the countries. [[Can you tell me more about that?|ICAN yeah]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Strange, strange world. Not much sleep. Lots of stress and - but ending up at Greenham around the fire was great. [[With a nice cup of tea and a singsong.|With a nice cup of tea and a singsong.]] [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. That was the kind of recovery time, that wasn't what it was about. It was about actually struggling against it in the courts and spreading the word, un-covering - what Cruise Watch was about was uncovering the secrecy. [[Thank Di McDonald, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I'm a forest school leader. So basically, all the years at Greenham kind of rubbed off on me so that I am - basically I like fires in the woods with kids without without the missiles being there. So we build shelters and do all outdoorsy stuff. And funnily enough, the organisation that I work for, we're a charity and it was set up by my good friend Arwi, who was at Greenham at the same time as me. And she actually set up this organisation. And - but yeah, so I think she was a teacher and then didn't want to go back into teaching and yeah, got into forest school back in 2000, just when it was kind of kicking off in this country and yeah. So our forest schools had quite a big Greenham influence as well. [[Absolutely.|Forest schools absolutely]] [[Wonderful.|Forest schools absolutely]]

I'm still getting smelly and smoky, and muddy. [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Okay, so my time at Greenham, there's two episodes. There's two - two periods of my life where I was at Greenham, and the first time around was when I was pretty young. I was I was 18. And I was living in Scotland where I'm from, and I'd gotten involved in youth CND and anti-nuclear stuff and feminism and all that, and I guess while I was still at school, and I'd been aware of Greenham on the news, a lot. I remember coming in from school one day and the Greenham Women were on the TV and I just stood there with my mouth open going oh my god, I want - I need to go there, you know? So the first time I actually went to Greenham I went down on a coach overnight from Dundee all the way down to Newbury with with a friend. And, you know, my Mum and Dad saying ‘You're not going.' And me saying, ‘Yes I am.’ And off I went, so probably like a lot of women did. Yeah. And so yeah, so then I ended up not quite then but a few months later, having had a brief episode living at Faslane Peace Camp before that - and then I decided I wanted to be involved in women only thing really so. So I, I headed to Greenham having visited and thinking it was amazing. And then ended up living there from ’85 to '86. So that was the first time and it was very different to the second time because back then there was lots of gates still open. And, you know, there was, it was quite a lot of obviously, there was quite a lot of comings and goings of women. And you know, it was very well supported at that time. And yeah, so it was nice to have that experience. I mean - also there was full on evictions and all that sort of stuff going on. So it was, it was.. and I lived and I mainly lived at Green Gate at that point. Because I've always liked being in nature. So I guess I gravitated towards the green tree area. But um, but yeah. And I had friends round at Blue Gate as well. So under the gates, obviously, but um, so then I moved away. I think after about a year, there I met a Dutch woman and I moved to Holland with her. And, yeah, so, so I had about six months where I lived in Holland. And then yeah - and I'm still in touch with that woman Joti actually, she lives in Belgium. So then I, I came back to London - we both moved back to London. And we spent quite a lot of time squatting in London and being part of sort of, radical, sort of, you know, squatting, women's movement. And, and, and I was coming - I never, I never completely stopped going to Greenham. I used to visit.. I used to go up there, and I still kept in touch with various friends over the years. And then it was coming up to the 10th birthday, which was 1990, September ’91. And I thought.. and I was in between housing, you know, I'd been house sitting for somebody who needed to move. And I thought, you know what, I'm sick of living in London. I'm just going to move back to Greenham and see how it goes. So I turned up, you know, with just my tent and rucksack. And, and, and I knew some of the women because I've been keeping in touch. So it was, it… Yeah, so I just moved back then. And at that point, it was Blue Gate, because there was only at that point, Yellow Gate, Blue Gate and Green Gate - and Yellow Gate had split off from the rest of Greenham. And you know, we did try and chat to them at times, but it was very much they were separate and blah, blah, blah. So. So we had, we had Green Gate and Blue Gate were kind of together, really, but some women, Green Gate was more of a smaller group of women. And then there was more women, at Blue Gate. So yeah, so I lived there from ’91 until January ’94. [[How different was it in the two eras being there - what was the difference?|How different was it in the two eras being there - what was the difference?]] [[You mentioned you wanted to go to a women only space? What difference did that make - it being women only?|you mentioned earlier on about it, you wanted to go to a women only space? What difference did that make - it being women only?]]

I think one of the main differences was, well, one, there was less women, generally. And we still got quite a lot of visitors - I guess there was less financial support. There wasn't the hot food runs and all that but then we didn't need it as much because we weren't being overpowered and evicted all the time. You know, compared to when I was there the first time where the evictions were daily and especially Blue Gate used to get evicted really badly, and sometimes twice a day or more. And by the time I'd moved back there the second time, the evictions were, you know, maybe once every couple of weeks. And then they come they take our rubbish away and leave us some new bags. It was more like a rubbish service really. And it stopped us from becoming hoarders, you know, made sure that no rodents could settle in you know. So, so they still made us move tents and whatnot, but it was really low key on the whole. Sometimes they got a bit nasty, but, um, and the police were coming with the bailiffs at that point because of stuff that the bailiffs have done in the past. The police used to come to make sure that the bailiffs didn't do anything wrong, not that we didn't. And the police were really friendly, they used to play with our dogs and everything, throw the ball for our dogs. And, you know, it was all like that it was very different and the bailiffs at that point were the common wardens and we knew them quite well. And those, occasionally they'd pick up a piece of furniture on the common or something, they'd bring it to us and say, ‘Do you want a new sofa?’ or ‘Do you want a chair?' you know, so that was very, very different from the first time where really they just wanted to grab everything, shove it in the muncher and were quite a bit, you know, very abusive and violent. So, so there was a change in tolerance. And I think from local people as well, there was a - I think the council had gone from conservative to liberal. So there was a slight change of less hostility. And maybe because we were less in people's faces, because there was less of us. And maybe also at that point, people had started to hate hippie travellers. So we were almost accepted because we weren't the new thing, you know. So, because at one point - this is just an aside, but after we left, we came back for my friend Arwi's 40th birthday at the time - we decided to go back to Greenham and have a weekend up at Green Gate. And the bailiffs came up the road, you know, common wardens as they went back to being and they stopped and looked, and they went, ‘Oh, it's you lot. Okay.’ You know, had a little chat. And then they went away, you know, oh, we thought you were travellers, you know. So it's just funny, isn't it? So, um, yeah, so the second time around at Blue Gate anyway, there was probably - I don't know, probably between 6 and 10 of us there anytime, most of the time - sometimes more. But it wasn't huge numbers, you know, but it was just consistent. And obviously, we were still doing actions, we were still breaking into the base. And by that point, as well, the the bylaws had been challenged in the House of Lords, by Georgina and various other women and so you could actually go into the base and not be arrested. So that was quite a big difference as well. So we used to go in regularly, I just skateboarded. Its nice to skateboard down the runway, for example - which was really nice. So we, we did lots of fun things like that. I suppose the second time around, it was, yeah, we were still doing quite a lot of break ins and actions. And, and of course, because the, because the missiles had gone a while before that, the silos were still there. So we used to go into the silos sometimes. And we could get into the control room there. And we realised the electricity was still switched on. So we used to go in there to plug in our hair clippers and give each other haircuts. Inside the control room of the missile silo, we used to leave little piles of hair as a little calling card. So yeah, there's all the funny stories you remember, isn't it? So… [[Definitely.|piles of hair Definitely.]] [[Were you ever arrested?|You talked a little bit about non-violent direct action that you took part in breaking into the base and things Were you ever arrested for those earlier on? ]]

So yeah, on a daily basis, if it was like, ‘Oh, we're bored, what should we do now?’ And somebody, somebody had acquired a dog handler suit, from one time they got into the base and got paint on them, you know, somehow. And so they'd been given a dog handler suit. And so we kept this dog handler suit. So it was just like a black overall thing. And we had this this policeman's hat. So we used to sometimes dress up in that and go in with our dogs and pretend we were dog handlers. We just used to do things to - I think at that point as well, then - because it was the MOD rather than the military on the perimeter we did, we did like to wind them up quite a lot. But yeah, just, just, just sort of keeping a presence. And yeah, so I think the second time round, it was more. It was a lot more relaxing in some ways in terms of stress, but we were still being evicted. And we did also still get quite a lot of abuse from locals. You know, we used to get stones - it was a whole phase where we were getting stones thrown out our tents and benders, just after pub closing time. And you'd be lying in bed, you'd hear the car door slam, and then you'd hear the rocks. And so, you know, I think what I realised when I left was that I'd always been sleeping with one eye open. You know, it's that thing - isn’t it? I'm not quite ever relaxing. And I think that's probably still affected my sleep to this day, because I don’t - I'm not a deep sleeper. Yeah, so though, you know, there was always stuff like that going on. [[That's interesting.|sleep That's interesting.]] [[How else did it, like so - you said like, long term you think that it’s affected your sleep? How else did it affect your personal life? Whether it be positive or negative - going and being at Greenham?|How else did it, like so - you said like, long term you think that it’s affected your sleep? How else did it affect your personal life? Whether it be positive or negative - going and being at Greenham?]]

Yeah. [[How else did it, like so - you said like, long term you think that it’s affected your sleep? How else did it affect your personal life? Whether it be positive or negative - going and being at Greenham?|How else did it, like so - you said like, long term you think that it’s affected your sleep? How else did it affect your personal life? Whether it be positive or negative - going and being at Greenham?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, um, well - I mean, in a positive sense, mainly, um, I've still got a lot of friends that I made at Greenham, or in connection with Greenham. And some of those women, you know, like, like Hina and Rebecca Johnson, for example, that - I’m still in touch with them now. And you know, just I think we all went on, on different directions. But there's something that's holding us together. And, you know, it's something that I wrote in this newsletter when I left, but I didn't know I couldn't project how it was going to be. ~And I think I wrote something about.. something I've come to realise is that.. I’ve said something about Brown Van, which was one of the vans that was famous at Blue Gate. I said //(reading)//: ‘Brown Van was gone. But don't worry, she lives on. And in fact, so do we, and so does Greenham. And that's something I've come to realise, which helps to soften the blow. The Common, bless her, will always remain with or without us. And we continue to weave and transform, to lead our lives. And we're still networking as women realising and making use of our strength in many, many ways. Spinning and weaving those webs each fine thread will trip and tie patriarchy into its own knots.’ So that was my 27 year old self writing that - but it was just that thing of, you know, there was a sense that we were still out there. And I can say for sure, you know, I've got friends all over the country and beyond. And now with Facebook, I've reconnected with some friends, like from America or from you know, from Green Gate first time around and, you know - so I think that's one positive thing is that I think that time cemented those bonds. [[So the bonds remain intact.|So the bonds remain intact.]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, yeah. And even though you didn't know it was there, it was there, because there's women that I've seen or talked to for ages, and then when you do link up, it's like you'd never been apart. So I think there was definitely some magic glue that was holding everyone - or some shared experience, which becomes even more poignant, as time goes on I suppose. And lots of Greenham Women are no longer with us. So I think it makes us really value - certainly for myself, I really value that time. It was, it was it was like being given a chance to live in a different type of society, I suppose. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Okay, so. So I guess for me, there was a few issues. And as I said, I went and lived at a mixed peace camp in Scotland, Faslane. And, you know, I had a good time there on the whole, but I am a lesbian. And I felt at that point that there wasn't many lesbians there and it was still quite blokey. And even some of the women there were very focused on the men, you know, and it was, you know, the men were always the ones doing everything. And, you know - not, not always - but there was a general sense of, you know, it wasn't necessarily a place where everybody would go and get empowered. I mean, there were some men there at times who were quite abusive to women, for example, that I found disturbing. And I think over time, I just thought, you know, I want to really - because I was a feminist, and I consider myself, you know - everything was very passionate and young. And, you know, I thought I really want to go and be immersed in this culture of women, you know, so as soon as I got there, it just felt like coming home, you know. It was - I suppose I grew up in Dundee. I got, you know, my Mum was in the Tory party. You know, I had one radical friend at school, who was the one I went to Greenham with, and she's, you know, had vegetarian parents and all this, but it was kind of weird then. So, you know, it just felt like breaking away from - I left Dundee, because I knew it was kind of suffocating me. I left school a term early, because I just thought, I can't be myself. And I remember writing to a Greenham woman and sending Christmas cards, you know, just to Greenham. And this woman answered me. And I was like - I went to school and it was on Dennis the Menace paper. And I was like, ‘I got this Greenham’, and it was like, this piece of treasure. I got a card or letter from somebody at Greenham, you know, and it was, it was amazing, you know, so anything - as a young sort of like schoolgirl, I was just, I just knew I had to go there. So I think once I did get there, that just, just the connection that you can have with women is just so different. And the power, you know, the power, not over but what but - but the power we all had together was just incredible. And I suppose I'm lucky because I feel like it taught me to value my body, to not be ashamed of myself, to accept myself. You know, we used to walk around topless. I remember the American squaddies came to the fence once around the Emerald gate, between Green and Blue, and they had their binoculars out and we were - it was a hot day. So we had our tops out, tops off. And they were like - we thought ‘oh god they're looking at us.’ So we walked straight up to the fence and said here have a better look then. And they were mortified, you know, because it's only exciting because they were spying on us. As soon as we you know, and that sort of thing… It was just really empowering to do that. And, you know, it was just one little example but and just, just, just the love that women have, you know, just, just the sisterhood and the love and the connection and, and the real sense of.. you know.. I mean, obviously there were disagreements and it wasn't all rose tinted glasses, but I am always amazed looking back even now just how well everyone did get on, because we were all under duress. We all had very different personalities and different reasons for being there, I suppose. And yet there was this thing that was this invisible, you know, thing that held us all together. And yeah, it was the power of women and I still got that in my life today. And I live with my partner now on the Gower and, and we built our own house, which was mainly built by women. Yeah, and in fact - was it you that interviewed Sally and, um… who live on the Gower? [[It wasn't me personally. But yes.|It wasn't me personally. But yes.]] [[Yes!|It wasn't me personally. But yes.]] [[Trying to find female builders is so hard. I'm sure there must be some female builders around here..|We've had builders, like, needed some building work done recently with leaks and stuff. And I was - I’m based in Leeds, and trying to find female builders is so hard, and I know, like, Stopcocks have set up, Mica May and things, you know, setting up that kind of thing. But there's still there's no female network, you know, that I can find and I'm sure there must be some female builders around here. But I found,]]

Yes. They, they live around the corner. And it's interesting, because I never knew they were at Greenham before me, and they were Orange Gate. And so when we we moved here from Greenham, which was part of the leaving story - ended up on Gower. And we met Sally and Ann who were Greenham Women. So it's like, we, we didn't know that they were here, but it's like, you know, I just talked to Sally this morning, actually, and said ‘Oh I have my Greenham interview.’ She was like, ‘Oh, say hi, for me.’ And, you know, so even when I landed here, there was Greenham Women sort of waiting to welcome us, you know, in a way, which we didn't know about. So they've been together, you know, they're both about 60-ish. And they've been together since Greenham in the 80s. [[Did they meet at Greenham?|They met at Greenham, didn’t they?]]

Yeah. That's right. So you know, you know, they've got an adopted son and everything. So it's yeah, it's amazing. So their house was built by a woman building team as well. And the same woman who project managed their build helped us a lot on ours, and she's our neighbour on the other side. So, so yeah, so it's just yeah.. [[Trying to find female builders is so hard. I'm sure there must be some female builders around here..|We've had builders, like, needed some building work done recently with leaks and stuff. And I was - I’m based in Leeds, and trying to find female builders is so hard, and I know, like, Stopcocks have set up, Mica May and things, you know, setting up that kind of thing. But there's still there's no female network, you know, that I can find and I'm sure there must be some female builders around here. But I found,]] [[How did the collective decisionmaking work at Greenham?|How did that work with the kind of collective decision making? In both - probably more so early on the first time you were there, how did that work?]]

You'd think there would be, wouldn't you, you know? I mean, there was loads of, I remember meeting lots of women from Leeds to do with Greenham, you know, it says, but, you know, it's hard to because they don't always advertise themselves, or stick their head above the parapet, do they? Because, yeah, there was one, at one of our neighbours and she used to be director of manual trades in London, for women in manual trades. Sorry. And, of course, she knew a network of everybody. But yeah, there must be women out there. Yeah. [[What is your job?|What do you do in normal times, if you can remember that is?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Um, okay. So the first time because there was - we used to, we used to have meetings. We used to have inter-gate meetings, you know, like money meetings, for example, which always were quite argumentative. I seem to remember that, you know, because it's bound to be - get a lot of women talking as well, or anybody talking about money, isn't it? It's just, you know, but when we were in a smaller group, it was obviously more easy because there was less of you to decide on something. But I think it was generally that when we would decide major decisions, we'd sit and just thrash it out and talk about it. And I think there was times, obviously, because everybody was acting independently, so I'm sure there was times - I can't think of a specific example. But I know, I know there's been times when some women will have gone off and done something and not everyone will have approved of it, but that's just the way it was because everyone was taking responsibility for themselves. However, I think a lot of bigger decisions that affected Greenham as a whole, it was just a case of sitting down and talking and, and trying to find a common ground or way through. [[So just taking the time to hear everybody out.|So just taking the time to hear everybody out.]] [[Oh, I see..|diaries Yeah, right.]] [[Were you aware of the camp being infiltrated at any point, whether it be by, you know, undercover police or journalists trying to find things out?|Were you aware of the camp being infiltrated at any point, whether it be by, you know, undercover police or journalists trying to find things out?]]

Yeah, basically, so it just meant everything, I suppose. Yeah, everything was quite long winded, I suppose at times, you know, I remember some I do remember some cracking argumentative meetings. But you know, you're bound to be - isn’t it? You know, so and, and of course, everybody was just kind of living - especially when everyone was living at separate gates, you might not see certain women much at all, you know, so obviously, when it was just Blue Gate and Green Gate, we had, we had a bank account that we put money in for, mainly for things like newsletters and stuff. It wasn't like mega bucks, but if we got donations, it would be for things like that, really. And so we just chat among ourselves. And you know, usually we managed to work it out. So I think we were all pretty good at we're probably understanding each other and we had, and we always had, there was many, many diaries that went round at Greenham and I'm sure you've heard of? [[Yeah, yeah.|diaries Yeah, yeah. ]] [[No, I haven't..|diaries Yeah, yeah. ]]

So, yeah, I think a lot of stuff would be written in the book. And then somebody else would write, you know, probably there was a few arguments got thrashed out on paper as well, because it was a way to.. [[Yeah, right. |diaries Yeah, right.]] [[Oh, I see.|diaries Yeah, right.]]

You know, not, obviously, not all women would be there at the same time, necessarily. So, yeah. I do remember one time we had a, we had a bit of an emergency, we had a bit of a fire. And I don't mean a fire. I mean, it was an out of control fire, at Blue Gate. And this has happened, because normally, we were just round the fire, and we'd got a plastic shelter, etc. And then somebody donated a caravan to us. So we thought, well, this is great, you know, so we made a little burner and put it in the caravan. And we'd still mainly hang out around the fire, but when it was really cold, or whatever we'd be - it was quite a novelty. So we were spending some time in the caravan in the evening. And it was one, one particular night it was windy and wet. So we covered everything up with plastic, tucked it all in, you know, covered the sofas up, tucked everything in and there was still a few embers on the fire. And we looked out and the flames were like 20 foot high shooting up because obviously caught fire onto the sofa. And we came running out. And I remember the first thing we grabbed, Emma actually grabbed the diary, which was stuffed under the sofa. And the dosh pot we called it where we had our money, you know, we'd all put in 10 quid a week or whatever, to communal funds. So she grabbed the diary, grabbed that. And we were like, careful, you could get plastic, molten plastic on you. She goes, 'I’ve got to get these.’ And then everything else burnt down. And I think the neighbour actually from across the road phoned the fire brigade because we didn't have phones or anything. And the fire engine turned up and they put the fire out. And I just remember the next day we got up and everything was just burnt and we were sat there on the lawn and we were sat on a pallet going oh my god, you know. And then lo and behold, I think later on that day, the bailiffs turned up with a three piece suite for us. [[Wow.|3 piece suite]] [[Probably quite a good advert for not having loads of possessions isn't it?|Probably quite a good advert for not having loads of possessions isn't it?]]

'Well, we just found this dumped. And we hear you needed some furniture. Do you want this?’ So we were like ‘Yes, please.’ So less - you know, compared to being in a house, which would have burnt down and you would have been devastated. By the evening we were sat on another sofa again. So yeah, it's quite remarkable. [[Probably quite a good advert for not having loads of possessions isn't it?|Probably quite a good advert for not having loads of possessions isn't it?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, do you know? Yeah, totally. That's what I'm thinking back to now as I'm trying to find places to put things in my house. We're still still not 100% finished it but we've been building it, started it in 2016. And I've been - previous to that I've been living in a house that I've rented for over 20 years, just around the corner. [[Yeah. |house Yeah.]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And there's so much stuff in there. And you know, when you think that was a nice thing about Greenham I suppose was the simple life and you had a rucksack of possessions, and you didn't need anything else really. So, erm - and if you needed it, it would sort of turn up, you know. So yeah, yes, that's a good lesson in not over, over hoarding things. [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Hmm, yes. I've been arrested a few times. And at Greenham, we used to use false names quite a lot. So when I was in Scotland at Faslane I got arrested under my real name, because it was kind of harder to get away with in Scotland at that point, because they were fingerprinting and photographing everyone and.. but at Greenham, at Greenham we went by false names. So and I went to Holloway once under a false name when I was quite young, and that, that came about as well because we handed ourselves in because we had a warrant out for an action we'd done. And a few, couple of friends we went to Newbury police station and handed ourselves in when it was horrible winter, wintery weather we thought we'll hand ourselves in now, because - also it meant that every time you sat around the fire, police turned up. You were a bit on edge, because it's like ‘Have they come to collect us?’ And so we bought, so a lot of women used to do that they'd hand themselves in when it was, you know, when it was a better time, should we say, you know. And then the police were then forced to drive us all the way to London, and then I remember them getting lost trying to find Holloway. Yeah, I mean, I'm only, I only did one week in Holloway because amazingly, apart from that I managed to somehow either not be charged or, I can't remember now, we must have got some charges that we either got off or got fined or whatever. But, but we didn't used to pay fines generally. [[Yeah. |Holloway fines yeah]] [[What was it like Holloway?|What was it like Holloway?]]

I think I'd paid a couple of fines in Scotland initially. And I also won a couple of court cases in Scotland by defending myself, which was great. And that was, that was stopping the Polaris convoy, which was before, before Trident was Polaris was there. So, but somehow it seemed more easy to get a fair trial in the Scottish court system, it just felt like, if you're going to be in court for Greenham stuff, the odds were stacked against you anyway, you know? Yeah, so yeah. [[What was it like Holloway?|What was it like Holloway?]] [[Court cases for Greenham what were they like, was there a lot of support? A lot of other Greenham Women there?|court cases for Greenham what were they like, was there a lot of support? A lot of other Greenham Women there?]]

Um, well, I mean, I'm sure everyone's experience was different. My experience was just boring, to be quite honest because I was stuck in a cell. I went in there with a friend, and then they separated us. So the first night we were together. And then the second night, she got put in the cell with some other women and had a really great time, apparently, where they made her do all these, you know, moving the boots, spinning the broom, and doing, they did all these sort of welcome rituals, you know, come into our (inaudible).. they had radio, and you know, they were having fun, and I was put in a cell on my own. And I think at that point, it was very overcrowded. So we were locked up for 23 hours of the day. So I remember just thinking, I don't really want to repeat this, because it's just boring. And I think, yeah, and I think even the book that I took in, they wouldn't let me read - I can’t remember what it was but they used to censor things, so. They took away my steel toe cap boots and gave me those little jelly shoes to wear. I remember that thinking hmm (laughs). You weren't allowed to have steel. But the bath was nice. I remember one of the reasons we thought let's go and have a nice hot bath at Holloway. So you know, that was a novelty. [[Yeah. |holloway bath yeah]] [[Were you aware of any women who were in prison, and then came to Greenham? So they hadn't been to Greenham initially, but had met Greenham Women in prison, and then ended up at the camp?|Were you aware of any women who were in prison, and then came to Greenham? So they hadn't been to Greenham initially, but had met Greenham Women in prison, and then ended up at the camp?]]

But I did meet some women who were in there, you know, met quite a few women just in the time I was there at mealtimes who'd been, a lot of women who are on remand for either mansl.. we met somebody who was in for manslaughter. And it's because she'd fought back against an abusive partner. And quite a few women, you know, were all basically in for fighting back against abuse, or petty, petty theft or crime or credit card fraud and things like that, you know, to try - and prostitution. So there was a part of me at the time I remember feeling like a bit of a fraud, because I thought I'm going to be in and out of here and it was my choosing, and you're here, through no fault of your own, really, because of, you know, the society we live in. So I think that was a bit of a, at a young age, that was a bit of a wake up, call for me, you know, you know, because we, it's a bit of a laugh when you're at Greenham and you decide to go and do an action, even if it's for a serious reason. Yeah, it's not to steal food to survive, or, you know, do prostitution or whatever, it's very different, isn't it? So. So there was that sense of privilege in a way that we were able to do that, you know, so not everybody is in a position to even do that. So we, yeah.. [[Were you aware of any women who were in prison, and then came to Greenham? So they hadn't been to Greenham initially, but had met Greenham Women in prison, and then ended up at the camp?|Were you aware of any women who were in prison, and then came to Greenham? So they hadn't been to Greenham initially, but had met Greenham Women in prison, and then ended up at the camp?]] [[Court cases for Greenham what were they like, was there a lot of support? A lot of other Greenham Women there?|court cases for Greenham what were they like, was there a lot of support? A lot of other Greenham Women there?]]

I haven't.. I don't think I personally met anyone. Although I do know some women who were in Greenham, who were sorry, who were in Holloway for longer did make friendships with women. I'm not.. I can't say for sure whether they came to camp or not, but I'm sure it happened. Yeah. [[Court cases for Greenham what were they like, was there a lot of support? A lot of other Greenham Women there?|court cases for Greenham what were they like, was there a lot of support? A lot of other Greenham Women there?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Um, it depends on the time, but yeah, usually, there'd be other women there. And, you know, it was that was one of the good things about Greenham is that they always, everyone supported each other. So yeah, it was usually quite a presence. So if it was, especially if it was a, you know, a mass action or something, or there was more women in - I think women were just popping in and out of court, quite, quite often anyway. So you know, and then in the later days, of course, this is the difference again, so after, after the bylaws were rescinded, or whatever, and it wasn't illegal to go in the base, it meant that we'd get apprehended by the police, but they wouldn't charge us. So that happened many times. Because obviously the first time around I wasn't there as long - second time around being there for nearly three years. We used to bob in and out of the base frequently and unless they caught you doing criminal damage or something, they couldn't really do a lot so, and of course there was a time they used to process people in portacabins in the base. And when it was, when there was a lot of break ins, a lot of action going on, they couldn't take everybody to Newbury nick all the time. So, I remember being processed in the portacabins and sometimes they charge you and sometimes they just put you out. So I think again, it probably depended on how many women they'd had to deal with. But yeah, so later on we did. And there's one particular action that, that I should tell you about, which was, it was when, it was the American leaving ceremony. So I'm trying to think what year that was now - it might have been in ’93. It wasn't that long. So it's when the Americans were officially leaving. And they had a, they had a ceremony that was being filmed on the news as well. The cameras were in there. And we decided we had to be there. So and it was, I think it was during, so it was the Gulf, the Gulf War, second Gulf War going on. And so we decided to go in with banners and everything, but we decided to drive in. So we went in - I think we must have got in near Violet Gate, so drove, you know, turn out Blue Gate, turn right went down the road. And I'm trying to remember how we got in now. Either the gate was open, it must have been open. Somehow we got in with this, with this car. And there was four of us in the car. And it was, it was a borrowed car. It was somebodies Fiesta, that didn't even belong to us. It was just on loan to one of the women that was driving and went - so we got in the base. And then suddenly, we see all these police sherpa vans chasing us. So we ended up doing all these donuts, like trying to get away from them. And it was it was just quite mad and quite fun. And we thought we've got to get to the parade because they were taking the flag down and we had the people going and all the rest of it. And then we got there, slam the brakes on, put down the lock so they couldn't get us out and think we had the banner hanging out just a crack in the window. Yeah. And they were saying open the car. All the all the cameras swung round on to us. I've never seen the footage because obviously I was living there at the time. But my brother did say he saw it. So. But yeah, they were all, everyone suddenly filming us. And we were shouting various things about you know, anti, anti-war slogans and stuff. And um, and then the police were like 'Get out, open the car.’ We're like, ‘No, no, no.’ So because it was a Ford Fiesta, it didn't take them that long to pick the lock and get us out. They probably opened it with um another key or something. They dragged us out. And then they put us in a van and they took us out. They didn't arrest us. They just took us out. But they confiscated the car. And we were like, ‘Oh no, you can't do that. This is not our car!’ You know. And then they said ‘Tough.’ You know. So they took the car away. And then we kept going to them and saying, you know, ‘Can we have the car back now?' And I think the next day, Leslie, the woman who was borrowing the car, she, she went to ask if the car was ready yet and they gave her it and couldn't believe her eyes. The Americans had spray painted all over it. It was just like they'd had their last laugh. So they'D written God Bless USA all over the bonnet. They spray painted out the windows, the doors, you know. So they had the last laugh, managed to graffiti a Greenham car. And then I think we spent about two days trying to clean all the paint. That was kind of funny, you know, looking back on it now. And luckily it was a bit of a tin can of a car you know - we did manage to clean it up it was just like ‘Oh no! This isn't our car!' So the Americans must have loved that. We gotta give them that. Really it was it was quite funny, really. [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, there were suspicions. I mean, in the time I was there, there was always talk. And I wasn't aware of any. I know there was individuals - I think there was definitely undercover police. And the journalists, they usually made themselves known, but there might have been undercover journalists, but they probably, they were probably the ones that were asking too many questions. I think everyone was a bit paranoid at times. So we’d go that's the spy, that’s the spy, you know. It became a bit of a joke. So it was hard to separate out what was real and what wasn't. You know, but I'm pretty sure there was numerous you know, undercover women - there must have been. I mean, there's also been situations where there was, there's been a couple of times where as military people like squaddies from the base, and one particular MOD policeman actually came over to the other side and either had relationships with women or through talking to women decided to leave their job so that, that definitely has happened as well. There's a woman that I know who lived at Blue Gate who did have a relationship with an MOD policeman. And I think he ended up getting a VW campervan. So, yeah, so it did happen that way. [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Ehm, it's funny because we didn't read everything unless there was anything really big, like, you know, like, breaking into Buckingham Palace and stuff like that it was all over the papers. And, but I think, I think obviously in the beginning it was more negative and it used to focus a lot on, you know how dirty we were, and you know, things like that. There was rats everywhere and which, which wasn't true actually, I never saw rats - might have seen a mouse once or twice, but, but you know there was that real sense of oh, they're just, you know, dirty and grubby and it's like yes, because we're banned from the laundrette, we were banned from everywhere. And of course, it was the Quaker meeting house that set up washing facilities for us, you know, so you know, those reasons why, if you're living outside, you're going to be dirty - aren’t you? But yeah, so there was a lot of that kind of using derogatory language. I think. [[Rather than focusing on what you were all trying to achieve? |Rather than focusing on what you were all trying to achieve? ]] [[Breaking into Buckingham Palace? Was that a Greenham action?|What about breaking into Buckingham Palace? I'm not, I’m not aware of that - was that a Greenham action?]]

Well, yeah, I think, I think and I think that was partly as well, because we were women only there was some sort of - I think there was a misogyny that was perva.. pervasive in the media anyway. You get the feeling if it wasn't a women only thing, it wouldn't have been talked about in quite that way. But it felt, it was always focusing on, you know, the, the lesbians or, you know, as if that was a bad thing, or smelly, or, you know, they haven't got jobs, and you know, all this sort of stuff. So, it was always the negative thing, rather - but I say always, I mean, I think there was some good media coverage as well, especially in the later years, I think. As I say, the tide turned a little bit and, and it was a bit of a softer feeling, I guess, because it wasn't everyday news, you know? And of course, if anything, what happened was, they didn't really report on a lot of stuff that was happening. And so, yeah, a lot of people probably thought we'd gone away, even when we hadn't. You can get a lot of negative feedback from the media or, or they can choose to ignore you completely. So.. [[Yeah, yeah.|Yeah, yeah.]] [[What about breaking into Buckingham Palace? I'm not, I’m not aware of that - was that a Greenham action?|What about breaking into Buckingham Palace? I'm not, I’m not aware of that - was that a Greenham action?]] [[Why do you think that a lot of people don't know about Greenham? Not just young people, you know, even people in their 40s who were young, but around?|Why do you think that a lot of people don't know about Greenham?]]

There was a couple of.. yeah. I mean, I wasn't on those. So it's probably not - I can't go into great detail. But there was, there was an action where when I was there, there was an action with a few women where they went over the wall to try and make make the Queen aware of - it had to do with the fact there was nuclear testing happening on Western Shoshone land and - which is Native American land in America where they were doing a lot of desert tests and stuff. So because basically, it was like appeal to the Queen as, as the sovereign you know, she can overrule anything. So it was, it was a symbolic action. And a lot of women basically took a load of ladders, climbed over and got into Buckingham Palace grounds. And took quite a long time to be found because they all went in different directions, and caused quite a hoo ha but I wasn't one of those women. Julie Howard was one of the women you know. She's written, she wrote a book about it recently where she mentioned that action. But yeah, I wasn't on that action. But I was one of the women, we, I stayed back at camp, there was a few of us that stayed at camp and I was looking after the dogs. And one of my, one of my friends had a dog, who moved down here actually after as well. She was one, there was a, must have been about five or six now probably more than that. Some of them met up in London, and some of them came directly from Greenham. And the only way we could find out - I think we must have been the last ones to know, walk down to the local newsagent and looked at all the tabloids and it was all over the front pages. Maybe, I can't remember when was it might have been ’92 or ’93 or something like that. But it was just a funny moment of oh, we don't really know what's going on because nobody's got phones. You can't just text or Email. So it's like, basically was like walk down and see if it's in the news. And it was. So in that case, the media was really useful because we knew they'd done it. So yeah, and they couldn't ignore that, obviously. So. Yeah. But as I say, I can't comment on what actually went on, because I wasn't one of the women there. So, but I was living at camp at the time. So yeah.. [[Why do you think that a lot of people don't know about Greenham? Not just young people, you know, even people in their 40s who were young, but around?|Why do you think that a lot of people don't know about Greenham?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think all the time, you know, there was a few good, I did an article, there was a few of us got interviewed for a Marie Claire magazine, for example, which was quite funny. And they did a full colour spread of a few of us being interviewed. And that was quite funny, because my brother saw that as well. I think his girlfriend had the magazine. And he was like, ‘Oh, that is my sister.’ And I think, I think I'd said something about how I made my own sanitary towels out of cloth or something. And they put.. fixated on this in the article and went on about how I'd use the same one for 10 years, and they made it sound really disgusting. We've still got the article somewhere because I thought it was just quite funny. [[I thought you were going to say you've still got the sanitary towel! (laughing)|I thought you were going to say you've still got the sanitary towel! (laughing)]] [[What about breaking into Buckingham Palace? I'm not, I’m not aware of that - was that a Greenham action?|What about breaking into Buckingham Palace? I'm not, I’m not aware of that - was that a Greenham action?]]

No I don't need that anymore! [[What about breaking into Buckingham Palace? I'm not, I’m not aware of that - was that a Greenham action?|What about breaking into Buckingham Palace? I'm not, I’m not aware of that - was that a Greenham action?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I mean, I suppose, I suppose, people in their 40s when Greenham first started, so that would have been, yeah, Greenham started in ’81. So I suppose by the time they were 10 years old, or whatever, maybe interested or hearing things. That's probably the second time I was there. And like I say, the media had gone quite quiet. And if anything, it was just like, oh, you're still here what are you doing still here? And, and so maybe there was less relevance attached to it by the 90s. I mean, for women who were coming there, there was total relevance, I think, because Greenham was always about more than just - might have started off against cruise missiles. But it was a place where women came to tackle all sorts of injustices and to focus on all sorts of campaigns. So you know - but there was a big link with Aldermaston that's still going the Aldermaston peace camp, and there was former, er, Women’s Aid to Former Yugoslavia. And so during the Yugoslavia, wars, clash, conflict, there was a lot of women involved with Greenham and who were living at Greenham, who went over and actually delivered aid in truck convoys. And supported women and we networked with peace groups over there - we actually had women from Yugoslavia come over and do a talk for us at Blue Gate, I've got photos of that somewhere, they were talking about, they were all rape survivors and had a lot of abuse during during the war. So that sort of thing. I think generally, it just wasn't sort of talked about, even though we were doing all these things. There wasn't really a media interest, I suppose. So I guess unless you were particularly interested, as a young person, it could have just gone over your head. And I'm guessing that's the main reason. I do know some younger people who have heard of it but you know, I suppose it's because if you are interested in, in, in protest, or the history of it. You know, you can study it - can't you? [[Yeah..|study Yeah]] [[I don't know..|study Yeah]] [[What do you think the legacy is of Greenham is?|What do you think the legacy is of Greenham is?]]

So I think it's really important to keep telling your story? [[I suppose whether you are interested in it or not, everybody knows about the suffragettes.|I suppose whether you are interested in it or not, everybody knows about the suffragettes.]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Exactly, and I remember - um, so I went, we used to go to women's music camp called Women In Tune. I don't know if you ever heard of it, it was running in, in Mid Wales for about 20 odd years. It just stopped a few years back, but there was, there was one year we decided to do an activism theme, you know, just as a loose theme, and we did a recreation of Greenham - there was quite a few Greenham, Greenham Women at the camp that year. And so we got an old sofa from, from somebody who worked in the local dump at Lampeter, we've got the sofa, we got, we - and I did a bender building workshop, and which was quite funny. We had, we made a little Greenham museum so we had our memorabilia like bolt cutters. One woman, Chris she brought all her charge sheets and, you know, bits of the fence. And we made a little mini exhibition. And then we also, as part of that we, we showed, we film - we screened the Carry Greenham Home film. And that was actually really interesting, because there was quite a lot of young women there and some girls. And so there was a lot of women that have been there and we were like ooh look, there's so and so (inaudible) women that were like completely, you know, in, in the experience, and then other women who were looking at it for the first time going, oh my god, you know. And then there was all these girls, and it was just such an empowering thing to be in the situation of, you know, old, old Greenham Women and girls who’d never heard of it and everyone was cheering and, you know, it was a really empowering sort of little screening of it in this field in the middle of Wales, you know. So, yeah, I think it's really important that that the stories keep, keep getting told and, you know, the stories I'm telling you now, you know, tomorrow I probably remember different things - isn't it? There's so many layers of it, and everyone's got their own story which is, which is what's so amazing about Greenham. [[It's amazing hearing these stories from you.|Yeah, definitely so many different stories from different people, and, you know, 100 women now, but still, we're hearing stories that we've not heard before. And it's amazing.]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I mean, maybe I should tell you - do you want me to say a little bit about why we decided to pack up and how it happened? Because obviously, you know, that was our home. I mean, some women had other homes, but like, I didn't have any other home, that was my home. So it wasn't just a protest camp or whatever it was my, my home, my everything. And, but it got to a point where, as I say, the numbers had gone down, obviously, because, you know, the Americans had left, the missiles had gone before that, and, and it was still a military base, but it was, it was less intense than it than it had been. So I guess the numbers had started to dwindle, and Blue Gate and Green Gate, as I say, we were all living together at Blue. And, and then a couple of women from Blue Gate, decided they were going to buy a sailing boat and sail across the Atlantic, you know, for the next challenge, as you do. And at that point, we thought, okay, that's going to mean, there's only like, four of us that are here all the time. And the thing about Greenham was it was never that safe to be there with too few women at any time. And so there was a real sense of, you know, you couldn't, we didn't generally leave one woman there alone, even to go into the town shop, didn't want to leave something alone, because it's like being on a shift, you can't really leave, you know, and anyone could come up and do anything to you, especially because we didn't have mobiles or anything. So we used to always try to have a minimum of three there at any time, or at least two. And it was becoming less able - we were less able to do that, you know. We’d often say, ‘Is it okay if I go into town this afternoon?’ And you know, you know, you felt like - so in the beginning, I think there was a lot of freedom at Greenham. It was something magical about the fact you'd come and go, you could be yourself, you could be free. And then the opposite kind of started to happen. And in a way, we were a tight knit community, but there was not enough of us. And although we had women that used to come and, come and visit regularly, none of them wanted, or couldn't come to live there. So back in November we, of ’93, we call the meeting. We put it out onto - through our networks and said we're having a meeting to discuss the future. Because we, we either need to recruit women to come and live here or commit to that, or we're going to have to look at closing down. So we have this lovely big meeting. And we made a steamed pudding. So we built, we built this, we had this, this water boiler. And we made this bit of steam pudding in this giant gampan. And so everyone came and had pudding, you know, we had all these discussions and talks and - but the long and short of it was that nobody felt they could commit to coming to stay. So we said okay, well, we're going to pack up. And we're going to aim to leave in January. Just to give ourselves time to wind everything down, and, and find somewhere to live basically as well. So, so we ended up, we ended up deciding we were - one woman went to London and three of us decided we were going to move to the Gower, because we knew a friend who'd said that we could come and stay in her cabin. So we thought, okay, let's do that. And we literally didn't know them very well at the time, but it was the start of getting, getting to live here. So we thought, okay, now we've decided to leave we need to get on with basically restoring the common because we didn't want to just leave it in a mess. So even though - there was a lot of plastic, there was a lot of stuff. So we spent, we spent quite a lot of time getting rid of things because even though we were living outside, we realised when we were getting rid of things that we did have quite a lot because by that point, like, say the bailiffs had reduced their duties and we had this chariot on wheels on pram wheels, and it was covered over and it was called Maria and Maria - because everything has to be mobile, so you could wheel it away if the bailiffs came. So we thought the hardest thing was we've got to get rid of Maria. So um, so I remember the moment we threw over, it was this big drop here to throw everything into this big concrete pit below down at Newbury dump. So it was like literally throwing bits of Greenham away you know, and it was, it was, it was, it was very, very erm - it was very heartbreaking. And it was, it was very difficult emotionally. I think, I think I say in, in here// (reading)//, ‘And I felt as if I was letting go of a huge part of me, unsure of what will be there to fill the gap, to leave the place where I and 1000s of other women had shared learn, challenged, laughed, cried and learned to be ourselves was one of the hardest things I've had to face up to. It seemed to take such a long time from making that initial decision to finally getting down to the physical ground of clearing the common, packing our things knowing we have somewhere to move to. But perhaps a transformation such as this is almost a rite of passage, it was not to be rushed. We had lots of help from wonderful women who spent time and energy to get things done to boost our morale, and help us have a few laughs right up to the last. One of the most perplexing things was it, no matter how much clutter we cleared, threw out, Blue Gate still looked unchanged. We worked solidly for two days to clear every last scrap from the land. And only in the last few hours, did it look like something was happening. Naturally, the turning point was when our beloved brown van was gone.’ And then that's when I said ‘But don't worry, she lives on.’ In fact we sold it to the pet shop people in Newbury, who were VW collectors. So I don't know what happened after that. But she was a very iconic brand. She started off at Orange Gate and lots of women used to sleep in her over the years. And we mainly used her for storage and sleeping space. And she hadn't started for about two years and we turned the engine and she started amazingly - VWs are great. So I don't know if she's still living on in some form. But yeah, so that was, that was a, you know, it felt like a big responsibility because that was camp as we knew it. And we told Yellow Gate we said, 'Look, we're leaving.’ You know, we were, like things were a bit less argumentative by that point. But we still didn't really want to have anything to do with anybody else. So, so yeah, at that point we, we kind of the final moment was when we got in our cars, there was a car and a van all packed up with our stuff and our dogs and and we were driving down Pile Hill into Newbury and the woman who lives in the house opposite us came out with her dog under her arm. And she went 'Oh are you going?’ And we said, ‘Yeah, yeah, we're leaving Bye!’ And we waved and she sort of waved back. And she was always having a, you know, bad things to say about us. But it's like she was kind of bonded with us in a weird way. So we were like ‘Goodbye!’ [[What was she going to do now she didn't have you to complain about?|What was she going to do now she didn't have you to complain about?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I know. Yeah. And also there was funny times like her dog once was on the common and got spooked by a hot air balloon. And it came running out. And it was about to get run over and one of - Emma who lived there grabbed, grabbed the dog, and stopped them from getting run over. And she came running out of the woods and ‘You got my dog!’ And she was so pleased that she turned up later that day with bottles of wine and boxes of chocolates. And she was really not - I think she was not against us as individuals. She just didn't like that we were there and that we were ruining her view. And really, I think she knew that we were - basically if anybody tried to break into her house, we'd have seen you know, so we were kind of - she knew that we weren't really harmful to her. It was just more like an inconvenience that we were there. But you know, once when we were leaving - I think it was it was a shock. So yeah, it felt good to - I remember I cut off, I had long, long plaits and I, I cut them off and I buried them in the site where my Bender had been and left them there and left that, and that of course they have been dug up because I think that bit's a carpark now. But, you know, there was bits of us got left there, as well as a bits of our heart, you know, and another nice thing that happened was we, when we went back on that time that I told you for my friend's 40th a few months later, and we took a couple of little birch saplings from the, from the clearing in Green Gate. And I brought them back here and the house that I was living in up the road, we planted them. And one of them survived and one of them didn't. And it's up there now it's literally five minutes away. So there's a Greenham tree that's about 30 years old, and also some - what’s it called? Oh, my mind's gone blank… Mental brain. Oh, what's it called? Honeysuckle? Honeysuckle. Yeah, we got some honeysuckle as well. And that's growing up there. So every time I go on a walk now past there, it's like the Greenham birch tree is actually there. And we've got bits and bobs, like Arwi said she has the post box because we used to get posts delivered every day. And because we had our own postcode, you know, we had a post box, which was just a big plastic box with a lid and had ‘Post’ written on it. And I was chatting to her yesterday and she said ‘I've still got the post box’ and I was like yeah, and so sometimes we go camping together and she, she takes it. We put bits of food and stuff and it’s still got ‘Post’ written on it //(laughs)//. So, as I say, I've still got a big pair of bolt cutters. And there's all this memorabilia that's floating around. Yeah. [[It needs needs to be preserved.|It needs needs to be preserved.]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, I know. Should make provision for it in my will really. [[Yeah don't let all that stuff get thrown away. Yeah definitely.|Yeah don't let all that stuff get thrown away. Yeah definitely.]] [[What do you think the legacy is of Greenham is?|What do you think the legacy is of Greenham is?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I know what looks like a load of rubbish - it’s got such a lot of memories in it and value. So, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, there's so many stories, but I don't know, that’s - I've talked quite a long time. I don't know what else you want to know. [[What do you think the legacy is of Greenham is?|What do you think the legacy is of Greenham is?]] [[Why do you think it's so important that future generations know about Greenham?|why do you think it's so important that future generations know about Greenham?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

The legacy? Ooh, it's hard to sum it up. But I think, I think one of the legacies is the fact that Greenham Women pioneered this type of direct action.. of non- violent direct action. And I think that's rippled on and you see it now. And, like, I've got a friend who's very active in Extinction Rebellion, and also in the HS2 two protests and, and she didn't go to Greenham she was a work colleague of mine, but she lives but she said.. Oh, the two women that she's been hanging out with, and working with and doing actions with are all from Greenham, and I know them. And one of them has set up as, she, she runs a kitchen where she's feeding all the protesters, and she's a Greenham woman who I've just linked with recently, she actually lived at Faslane the same time as me, she's a Scottish woman. And she goes around, she's been to Crackley Woods, she's been to all the different - she drives around all the different camps, feeding, feeding protesters. And, you know, it's just really nice that - it's almost like there's women from Greenham, who are like veteran protesters, who are now giving something or teaching. And this - another generation, you know. And also they're doing it themselves, but I think the legacy is that it actually became non.. the whole thing of, of, you know, going, going floppy and doing NVDA and all that sort of thing. I know it existed before Greenham, but I think Greenham, Greenham is where it became known to the world, I think, you know, because - and the fact that women came to Greenham from literally all over the planet, you know, and put an input into it, and then went away and so Greenham's living on, like, as, as a little web all over the planet. And you know, and it's only through things like, social media and Facebook, that I realised that, that, you know, there's women that I've connected with, and then seeing what they're doing, and doing their own little, you know, whether it's mindful living or growing their own food or, you know, building their own homes or working to protect the Earth in some way you realise that women are still doing, what, the essence of what we set out to do at Greenham has now expanded out into this global.. It’s like - I don't know, it sounds a bit twee. But it feels like we're, there's caretakers of the earth all over that have been seeded by Greenham, you know, and then maybe even second or third generation, you know, from that, you know, as women I know, it feels like that. And to me, because - I mean, I was a young adult when I first went there, and it was the most, you know, the most significant part of my life, I think, and then going back again, almost reinforced it and gave another layer to it - another depth to that. Just, just, just a difference of a few years. And so, yeah, and it is, you know, if this - there’s nothing about Greenham that I regret. I just think this, you know, I know, my parents, I left school and I went into protesting, and because everyone thought they were gonna be blown up by nuclear war. So it's like, I should have gone to university and I didn't go to university. It was expected I would go to University. Like everyone else in my family. And I thought, no, this is more important. So I do say to people, I went to the University of Greenham Common, because I learned so much there. And, you know, we continue to learn from each other. And it was it was like a University of life, really. So I think that's one of the legacies. [[That time people genuinely thought that they weren't going to survive.|That time people genuinely thought that they weren't going to survive.]] [[Why do you think it's so important that future generations know about Greenham?|why do you think it's so important that future generations know about Greenham?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, they, you know.. [[It was a serious threat.|It was a serious threat.]] [[It was a serious threat?|It was a serious threat.]]

Ehm, well, I think it's really important that we don't forget what happened, because it might seem that certain things are taken for granted now. I mean, even, even the fact that, you know, even, even from a feminist or women's point of view, you know, back when Greenham started, the society we lived in was still a hell of a lot more sexist than it is now. And I think there's a lot of things that have happened, not just from Greenham, but that Greenham was part of a big, a big platform where women were able to, actually, you know, reclaim power. I think it's really important that that doesn't get forgotten, but also just realising that if you believe in something strongly enough, and that you don't agree with what's going on, like, say, for example, with HS2, I think, you know, the fact that you can actually go out there as one person and you become many people and that you can actually make a change… I think that's one of the legacies of Greenham, because those women that left in Cardiff and marched to Greenham had no idea what it was going to turn into. You know, but you've got to believe strongly enough in something if - I guess that is the message. If you believe strongly in something, act on it, don't be afraid to act on it. And don't be afraid to speak out. Because otherwise, something amazing might never happen. So and it does feel a little bit symbolic that I didn't know many of those women who marched from Cardiff because obviously I was up in Scotland being a schoolgirl. But we've come back to Wales. So there's that Wales, full circle connection back to Wales again, for me anyway, it's a - which is interesting. And I've actually realised that it's, it was 27 years ago, this month that I left Greenham because it was the 24th of January 1994 that we packed up. And that'll be half my life, because I'll be 54 this month. Yeah. So I left left Greenham just before I was 27. And it's, it's 27 years on so. So yeah. Mind blowing. [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was like, you know, waking up having those mushroom cloud dreams and, you know, thinking someone's going to press the button, you know, a bit like it was a couple of years ago, when Trump and Kim were playing games, you know, it's just, it's just - but that thing it was, it was very real. And, you know, I do think also that Greenham did play a massive part in - I know, we've still got Trident, but I think that whole thing of having these mobile nuclear weapons that they could drive around the countryside, it was - we just showed how ludicrous it was. And the fact was, a lot of the things we did was silly, actions. But it was to kind of undermine the seriousness of the secrecy around it. And Greenham, I remember, Greenham had the longest runway of any base in Europe, any air field in Europe, so they could fly anything out of there. But, you know, they couldn't do anything without being spotted by us. So that in the end, that's one of the reasons I think they had to close it was because it was just - if you said Greenham Common, everyone, just would think of us and, you know, the peace camp. And, you know, and the fact that it was so easy to break into, you know, that became a bit of a joke, really, so. And I think that's what they didn't understand - there's something that women can particularly do well, and that way is undermining the seriousness of the military and the patriarchy by - not that we are not serious about it, but by doing it in a humorous way, it disarms people as well. It disarms those men because they don't know how to respond. And it's not like somebody going out there and being violent, and then they can, they know what to do about that and it can be violent back. But you know, when you're, when you're supergluing, you know, ducks to the runway, or going in the base in a in a bunny suit, or, you know, skateboarding down the runway, or whatever it is - yeah, they don't know how to respond. So - and I think that was the power of it. I think Greenham wouldn't survive without humour, and laughter and, and crazy ideas. So I think that that's a legacy as well is that, you know, that, and also the other thing yeah, the other thing is just the empowerment of women. So many women I know, that have been to Greenham found themselves, you know, and became who they who they were meant to be, I suppose. And I include myself in that really, you know, so I feel really fortunate to have been born when I was and being able to be part of all that. So I'll be forever grateful. And I do miss it a lot. So it's.. and it's great being able to talk about it. [[Why do you think it's so important that future generations know about Greenham?|why do you think it's so important that future generations know about Greenham?]] [[Thank Pixie Taylor, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

My name is Sian Jones and I grew up in Wales in a family that was sort of quite divided, I think over the issue of peace. My Grandfather was a member of the peace pledge union and conscientious objector in the First World War. My Uncle Norman, was a conscientious objector. My father was in the army. And my Mother worked in a munitions factory. And my Grandfather, his, my Mother's Father, refused to speak to her throughout the war - because she worked in a munitions factory as - I think she worked in the finance department. But my, my Grandfather, particularly, I think - a very good analysis of, of - one I remember when I was quite young, this sort of discussion around some meal, about how the arms companies and breweries and the Tories were the people who made money out of war. So, you know, there was quite a lot of discus-sion about it. I think my, my father, who had a sensible perspective on my en-gagement with political things - I think around the time that Greenham started, my mother was quite good friends with a lot of Welsh nationalist people who were involved with, in Wales, a small group of women in Wales who started the whole thing off - they are part of the same sort of milieu, as it were, sort of political milieu. So yeah, I suppose I mean there was no sort of outright condemnation. [[When did you go to Greenham for the first time?|When did you go to Greenham for the first time?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|When did you go to Greenham for the first time?]]

In fact, the first time I went to Greenham was Christmas, it would be just after Christmas 1981 when I was coming back from spending Christmas with my parents in Wales, and my mother gave me an extra Christmas cake to take to Greenham. So this would have been I don’t know, New Year-ish time. And so I stopped off at Yellow Gate. And I’d never been there before. And they said, 'We've got far too many Christmas, many Christmas cakes. Everybody brings us Christmas cakes. We don't want Christmas cakes. Go somewhere else.’ So I thought all right, that was friendly. So then I went to Green Gate. And they said, ‘Is it vegan?' And I said, ‘No.’ Knowing my mother. And, and so I went home with my Christmas cake. And feeling slightly sad that my attempts to go to Greenham and be nice had come to nothing, except I had an extra Christmas cake to eat. So yeah, so that was probably, that was probably not encouraging. And having spent a lot of time subsequently at peace camps I don't think that that was unusual. Or, I mean, the sort of hostility to anybody who comes from outside is is a bit weird, really. But you can see it when you know, you have loads and loads of visitors and actually, they're just coming to visit and you're sitting there in the pouring rain and blah, blah, blah, but it wasn't wasn't an encouraging experience. And most of the I mean, I think the reason, the reason I wanted to get engaged in Greenham is that I was involved in lots of women’s stuff anyway. Like the women's centre in Southampton, and part of - I was working full time in museums as part of the group called Women’s Heritage in Museums. I mean, you know, sort of nearly everything I did, I was doing a lot around women's history. I was teaching women's history you know, so, so it didn't seem you know, and that, and a vague peace movement background seemed to make sense. But actually, I think.. I think in a way it was the the non-violence that was quite attractive, because in the late 70s I was involved in quite a lot in anti-fascism and anti-racist protest. And it was violent. It was around the time of the National Front. And it was around the time when there were really, really big demonstrations. And the left was, I would say, as violent as the National Front and as violent as the police. So I got very - there was a time when I just thought I can't do this anymore. It was yeah, there was just so much violence that you, and you also didn't know where it was coming from really, it could, you know. Oh, you could get squished by some other people being violent. So I think the non-violence was quite attractive really. Yeah, so that's, that's a bit of background. [[Oh, thank you. So, so you - would you say that it was through being involved with feminist networks that you knew about Greenham then?|Oh, thank you. So, so you - would you say that it was through being involved with feminist networks that you knew about Greenham then?]] [[You mentioned the early days when you first stopped off at Yellow Gate and Green Gate. What gates did you tend stay at when you were coming and going from Greenham later on?|you mentioned like in the early days when you stopped off at Yellow Gate and Green Gate. But what, what, did you - what gates did you tend to sort of stay at when you were coming and going from Greenham?]]

No, I think, well, I don't know. I wouldn't say everybody knew about Greenham but, you know, any, any thinking person would know about Greenham. But I think because we were so close to Greenham in Southampton. And there were a number of different, there was sort of feminist networks. There were lesbian networks, and there were families against the bomb networks. And there were, I think there was a Family's Against the Bomb network in Southampton. So there was quite a lot of different groups, which eventually sort of, I don't know, somehow all percolated together. And there was a very consistent number of women in Southampton, who were involved in Greenham to one extent or the other. I’ve just been looking at, sort of looking forward to the 10 million women in 1984. I found a list of women from Southampton who had gone to Greenham and it covers sort of, I would say about 200 women from Southampton, went to Greenham for that - either for like the day or for several days or for the whole thing. So I think there was quite a strong network there with some quite strong women who were probably very engaged. And some women who lived at Greenham at one time or another, I never lived at Greenham. No, I don't, I didn't think there was anybody who went to live at Greenham sort of permanently - but women dipped in and out of that sort of activity. And also, at the same time, quite a large number of women would later from about 1984 onwards get involved in Cruise Watch. And there was quite a lot of women involved in - I would say that 75% of Cruise Watch in Southampton was women. So there was a lot of potential for women's actions and stuff like that. [[You mentioned the early days when you first stopped off at Yellow Gate and Green Gate. But.. what gates did you tend to sort of stay at when you were coming and going from Greenham later on?|you mentioned like in the early days when you stopped off at Yellow Gate and Green Gate. But what, what, did you - what gates did you tend to sort of stay at when you were coming and going from Greenham?]] [[How did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your own life, as well as in a broader cultural meaning?|how did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your life as well as in a broader cultural meaning as well?]]

Generally, Southampton went to Orange Gate, which is where Camden women also went. And some other women from London and from Essex. And quite a few women who've been involved in the South London Women's Hospital campaign. And then some women from Bristol… Somerset were there fairly consistently so it was a, I think that was the general - I mean, obviously there would be women from lots of different places at different times. But I think that was the sort of core, the core group. And I mean, we would go to you know, I knew, I knew, you know, I used to go and visit some women at Violet Gate because I got on and I liked them. Sometimes I - there's a couple of women from Wales who used to go to Red Gate, you know, it just depended really on who you knew, or who you got to know. And then you went to visit them. But generally I would you know, if I was going, back for the weekend or to do a Night Watch or to do something specific or if there was an event on or whatever, I’d go to Orange Gate. [[Do you think the diffrent gates had different personalities, agendas and remits? Apart from them all being a bit unfriendly when you turn up!|And that some character, some people characterise the gates as, as having slightly different sort of personalities or agendas and remits. Are you - do you want to men-tion any of your experience around that? Apart from them all being a bit unfriendly when you turn up??]] [[How did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your own life, as well as in a broader cultural meaning?|how did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your life as well as in a broader cultural meaning as well?]]

No, I think that the, the, I mean, after that first time it, I mean I don't think it was was like that, at all, really, that was just a bit of a sort of, you know, slightly off putting thing. I mean, at the beginning, we weren't like, you know, the - because we were so near the day that the missiles actually arrived. You know, we all got messages, because by then we had telephone trees. And I think it was 1983. March 198.. I did make some notes somewhere, but I think it was March 1983. And we just went and we went to obviously, we went to Yellow Gate because that was the the Main Gate. And of course, that was long before the split. And I sort of, being in my head, that the split sort of happened much earlier. But I just refreshed my memory and it wasn't till 1987 that the actual you know - I mean, it built up from earlier than that, but it does sort of, the real nasty viciousness was 1986, 1987. So Yellow Gate was quite a sort of fine place to go and to be early on, and there were, you'd just go and see some women there, you might not want to talk to all of them. Because there's some people who were quite annoying, but there were women who were quite annoying at every gate, you know. So they all did have their personalities. And I think that women also sort of did a bit of, you know, touristing from one gate to the other until they found somewhere where where they wanted to go, you know. So I think - what would I say about Orange Gate? I think there was a definite sense of sort of political commitment at Orange Gate, because there were quite a lot of women who’d been involved in other campaigns, and also women who were involved in - there was a woman there from Essex Rape Crisis Centre, which actually had been used as a model by lots of other rape crisis centres setting up, was quite sort of well known and well respected. And the women from the South London Women's Hospital campaign as well. You know, they were quite sort of, yeah, quite sort of feisty women who'd been involved in quite a lot of political campaigning or campaigning around women's issues in quite a sort of strategic and organised sort of way and coming from quite strong, strong sort of… I don't know, I mean, there were probably some, some socialist, I don't know, I can't put people into categories. But it was, you know, it's quite interesting. It was probably not as cosmic as Green Gate. But what did - that didn't mean that, that there weren't nice songs and activities and important sort of rituals and stuff like that. So yeah, it seemed quite a comfortable gate to be at, partially because I think the area was quite big. So it was quite possible for quite a lot of women to come camp there. Where as some of the gates actually, you know, Violet gate was actually quite tiny in comparison, so, you know, yeah. [[So coaches would come up from Southampton to Orange Gate?|And the coaches would come up from Southampton to Orange Gate. ]] [[[[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

Yeah. I never came on the coach, but.. maybe I went on the coach my first time. No the first time we just drove up, because that was the time when the, yeah, that was the time when the warheads actually came in. [[Yeah.|warheads Yeah. ]] [[Keep listening quietly..|warheads Yeah. ]]

But that was at Yellow Gate, I think. Yeah, I mean, Orange Gate, wasn't that useful in terms of blockades and stuff because there was really very, very little traffic in and out of it. And I've got quite a lot of pictures of blockades at Orange Gate. And I'm thinking now, what was it that we thought we were blockading? Because hardly anybody went in and out. I mean, you know, Blue Gate, Yellow Gate, were more sort of likely to.. given, where the convoy in the end was located and where it came out from. But I think it was, you know, a lot of it was very symbolic. I'm not sure what we, what we were blocking. I mean, you know, we went and did stuff didn't we really. I mean, some of it was well thought out, and some of it was well planned. And some of it was just sort of like having fun, really, because you could, and particularly up until about 1985, before they brought in the new military lands bylaws, I think that's '85, ’82, but they weren't boughtin till ’85. So basically, you could, you could just do what you like, really. And then I can't remember when they started sort of - I mean, I had to look through some old diaries, and certainly that we were involved in some court case, but I'm not quite sure whether - I can't find my criminal record file. Early as, early 1984, I think. I'm sure we'd been in before then quite a few times and got out again. I mean, that was wasn't actually terribly difficult. And I remember it took me quite a long time to decide because I had this job and I thought, oh, god, I'm not gonna be able to do this. But actually, you know, in a while, it became sort of second nature really. It wasn’t, it wasn't difficult, it wasn't problematic. And Orange Gate was a bit of a difficult place to get to the silos. For example, I mean, I remember being in there for four hours, and we never actually got there. We were found before we did so, you know, it was obviously much easier to go into Green Gate or somewhere around go in Blue or Emerald if you wanted to get to the silos. So yeah, we did. We sort of stood on the runway a few times. I'm really not sure what that was, or painted the runway or, you know, I mean, the word sort of pointless actually wasn't pointless. It was a campaign of attrition against the US military and that they couldn't take that land away you know, so there was a point going on it but probably I think it was probably just sheer weight of numbers really. And I know that after they bought in the Military Lands Act there was like a competition really to see how many, many times we could get arrested. I mean, it got, it really really did get a bit like that. [[I would.. I would suggest that actually you know if, if Blue Gate and Yellow Gate and Green Gate were being really effectively blockaded, then they, it would be important to blockade the other gates too because it closes their alternative options for leaving.|I would, I would suggest that actually you know if, if Blue Gate and Yellow Gate and Green Gate were being really effectively pocket blockaded, then they, it would be im-portant to blockade the other gates because it closes their alternative, their options for leaving.]] [[Were you arrested very much, and what was the outcome of that? Did you go to prison at all? | Were you arrested very much, and what was the outcome of that? Did you go to prison at all? ]]

Yeah, but being realistic. I mean, apart from you know, like I'd say in 1982 There were probably enough women round that you could do that. But I've been looking through my files you know, and as soon as embrace the base is over, there are letters going out saying, ‘We desperately need women. We haven't don't have enough women at the gate. We don't have this and we don't have that.' And, and I think that there's this whole idea that you know Greenham was full of women all the time and most of the time there were not that many women at each gate and for those women at those gates it's a real struggle. So actually to be able to, I mean, I think that's why we did Night Watch because we could come up from Southampton and we had these red things called getaways so that you didn’t - you got in your sleeping bag and you get away rather than having to - but they were sort of there rather than being in a tent. And the aim was to watch the gate and then to be able to alert anybody if anything was happening. And I would generally do that at Orange Gate. And so I assume there were other women doing it. Other gates, I mean, split like the food run, as well. And I, for some reason, some reason I think we did Blue Gate. I'm not quite sure, in Southampton anyway. But maybe we did other gates as well. I mean, we took it in turns to cook and took it in turns to deliver. So I'm not quite sure how it all worked out. But I think, yeah, I mean, there really - probably, there were times when there were enough women to cover every gate. But I think there were times when everybody felt a bit thin on the ground and really needed more women to come. And a lot of energy and organisation went into organising activities, which would encourage other women to come whether they came for a day or whether they came for the weekend. But the, and then there would be other women who would sort of come in from quite far away, and stay for a reasonable amount of time. And it'd be like women from London who come up for a couple of days, and then they go back again. So having not lived there, I don't know what the feeling was in terms of you know, we're okay, we're fine. And we’re resilient, or how much of a.. you know, looking back at sort of some of the appeal letters, it just sort of looks like shit, we need more women to, to be here with us. And I think particularly when - I think that in 1984, when the 10 million women thing happened, although there weren't 10 million women - although I really strongly believed that I wasn't going to be able to get there because of the traffic jams - but actually quite disappointed, really, that oh, it's gonna take me ages. And we'd also done a walk from Southampton with a goat or something to sort of publicise it, and then some of us went back and got stuff and whatever, and then, then, then went to it. So we’d already been doing the walk a few days before. And yeah, I think we expected that to be like 1000s of women that - and there probably were about 2000 or maybe 5000, I don't know, I don't know if anybody ever counted them. But after that I don't, I'm not sort of conscious of big gatherings. I mean, you know, reasonably, reasonably large gatherings, but not huge. So I think it's quite remarkable that the women who did live there, were able to maintain it all of that time. And I think that is because there was a good support network. And there were enough women popping down and bringing stuff and doing their own actions and stuff to keep it going. It's quite remarkable.. really, really, really is quite remarkable in how, how, how the camp sustained itself and did so much and made so many links, you know. Links with Women Against Pit Closures, links with the Women for Free and Independent Pacific and all sorts of other linked, - I mean, women from Australia.. Australia or New Zealand where bringing issues from the sort of that part of the global south. It was it was very interesting, I think, politically, and it was also very interesting in terms of, of why women were there because the women were there for all sorts of different reasons, you know, the land reason, and - you know about reclaiming the common and then a sort of biological essentialist we’re against war sort of stuff. And then women who wanted to live in community with other women and women who wanted to go somewhere where they could be bit cosmic on the sort of nice space and obviously women against nuclear weapons, but there wasn't really much discussion around militarism, - it was, it was part of the blockades. But it was very, very focused on yeah, on nuclear weapons rather than nuclear weapons being part of the sort of military industrial complex. But then there were women who had specialised like Kim Beasley, who did a lot of work around zapping. And she was herself a sort of a scientist, and she knew an awful lot about the military as well and stuff. So it's, it's quite yeah, it was, you know, I think, given that, you know, the socialist feminist Women's Movement said it was a sellout. And, you know, all those sorts of famous 1980s feminists who wrote books just sort of thought Greenham was some sort of bourgeois deviations stuff. I think it was quite amazing that it was sustained. Because it, because it was very, very diverse. I mean, not, not diverse in terms of, of race, or ethnicity. It was, it was pretty white. But it was diverse in terms of the range of mainly middle class women's beliefs. Let’s go as far as that. [[Were you arrested very much, and what was the outcome of that? Did you go to prison at all? | Were you arrested very much, and what was the outcome of that? Did you go to prison at all? ]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

No, I didn't go to prison because I had a job, when I first started, and I wanted to keep a job. So when I first started doing actions, I adopted a, an assumed name. But then, as I got better at court cases - and it was the days when you defended yourself, you know, none of this sort of have - I mean, the first time, which is more to do with Cruise Watch than anything else - but we had a lawyer and it went really, really badly wrong. So, I mean, we defended ourselves in court. And the first time I sort of won and I got costs, they went to this false name. So I decided - I’ve still got a check in that false name. So I thought, fuck it. And so then I, then I would get arrested in my own name, but I just paid the fines. I mean, they were like, between 5 and 20 quid. And it didn't really, I don't think it made - it didn't make that much difference to me. I know, a lot of women were sort of… but I knew that if I went to prison, I would probably lose my job. And I wasn't that committed to, you know, for a lot of women, it was their whole life. And they made that commitment. And I, yeah, I just wanted to carry on doing my job as well, because I liked it. And, and certainly, I mean, it was not without its difficulties. But I think, I think I got away with it all the time, time during Greenham I think it was, yeah, it was the Gulf War that, that they started asking questions, because yeah, '91 I think was the first time - but that’s, that was different. That was Official Secrets Act. So that was a bit more and then my - I had to go to work thing and just narrowly kept my job. So yeah, I mean, most of the I don't know how many times I got arrested. I probably got arrested more on Salisbury Plain than I did at Greenham. Because I think Cruise was a little bit more intense and focused in terms of the actions. And it was, it was very full on because I can't remember when it was from, but certainly probably the first convoys went out in 1984. And probably 1985, 1986 was like once a month. And I used to sort of, it would be like a whole week out of each month. And then we'd sort of have time to recover and then it would start again. And I remember going into work one morning when I'd been out on Salisbury Plain till about 6 o'clock in the morning and then I’d driven back and then I went in, and I used to work in museums and I used to do education work with children. So I’d get in and there'd be 30 children all wanting to know something. And I'd have a head like cotton wool, you know. So sometimes yeah, it was a bit of I mean, it didn't stop me from doing my job. But it yeah, it was a bit of a struggle at times, really, because I was just so so knackered, but it was - I don't know I think there was a lot of, it involved quite a lot of adrenaline, really, I think. I mean, particularly when the convoy’s going out and coming back in terms of tracking it, but then in terms of finding it on Salisbury Plain. So I think that the adrenaline was probably the sustaining, the sustaining thing. [[That and coffee.|That and coffee.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Coffee 2]]

And coffee.. [[Yeah..|Coffee 2]] [[Keep listening quietly|Coffee 2]]

And I mean, it was it was, it was very odd, odd thing to do, I suppose. But it was, it was. - it’s quite interesting, historically. That. I mean, there were a couple of women around Newbury, who were very, very closely.. close to the camp, but also, they were really. Yeah, three very great women, Evelyn, Dragon and Peg, and they were like the powerhouse behind - I mean, Cruise Watch was mixed, but the men were not supposed to go to Greenham. And they were, they were, they weren't - there was a sort of little perimeter, which they shouldn't go beyond. And some of them did, I think at some point, because I found a letter that's protesting about men going to near Greenham from Yellow Gate to Cruise Watch. But they were called the peanuts. But we all communicated with each other using CB radios. And I think that that was just quite amazing, because CB radios was something that truck drivers use, and sort of country and western people. And it was just like a whole, a whole new world. And in fact, in the end, some of the truck drivers, and some of the country and western people who would hear us when they got on our channel would actually give us information. And I remember once, it was just before the INF Treaty was signed on, maybe after - it was one of the very, very last convoys. And we were in one of the clapped out - we had a collection of clapped out cars that we could use between us. And the gear lever came off the car and we were like oh no and we were trying to get to - anyway, a junction where the roundabout, where the convoy goes. We were coming up from Southampton, Bullington Cross. And we were just standing there, three of us on the side of the road thinking shit, we're not going to get there with our hand spanner. And then this lorry driver came past me said 'you going to the convoy' and we said 'yes'. And we climbed in and he dropped us off. And then he gave us a lift back afterwards to the to the ruined car, which was somehow fixed or whatever. Yeah, I mean, this… I don't know. I mean, I don't know how, if you want to know about Cruise Watch, or… [[Do you want to say anything more about Cruise Watch? Is it still going? |Do you want to say anything more about Cruise? Because it's still going, isn't it? ]] [[Greenham Women really are everywhere..|Yeah. So you're, you know, you've talked quite a bit about Cruise Watch, and that was a mixed thing. But it was an example of a lot of spin off things that came out of Greenham. And for me, one of the key phrases right from the start was Greenham Women are everywhere. You didn't have to be,]]

No, that’s Nuke Watch. [[Oh, that’s Nuke Watch. Oh, yes. Okay.|Oh, that’s Nuke Watch. Oh, yes. Okay.]] [[What is Cruise Watch?|Oh, that’s Nuke Watch. Oh, yes. Okay.]]

Yeah. Cruise Watch was focused on Cruise Missiles. And some of us who are involved in Cruise Watch did actually go and look, go down to Portsmouth and do work around Polaris, which was then the submarine system before they brought in Trident. But I think what is interesting about Cruise Watch is that so many, like the same woman that we knew in London, or from Essex or from various other places would just suddenly turn up and you'd be at a roundabout and they would be there. And so it was, it was, it was embedded in sort of certain parts of the Greenham Women's support groups, the London women's support groups. And the other networks and it's also it is thought that one of the women who was in one of the London support groups was the one of the spies that was at Greenham, you know, this, this whole thing going on about undercover police. And there was definitely an undercover police woman at Greenham and women from camp also used to go out and do Cruise Watch and go out and track on Salisbury Plain as well. So it was - I would say not all women - but the whole the whole promise that Cruise would melt into the countryside, which is what the government's position was in a statement by Michael Heseltine, it never happened. There was never one con-voy between 1984, and whenever the last convoy was 88, not one was, wasn't tracked, or stopped, or spotted, or found, or whatever. And I think actually, that's quite - I mean, it did make it very, very difficult for them to actually deploy the weapon system. And I think that's, that's actually quite significant. And possibly part of the reason why there are very few, or none probably, land based nuclear weapon systems in in current - I don't know, maybe Russia has them. And, you know, in between. So you have the INF Treaty in 1988. And obviously, there's a whole range of factors or from 1987. Anyway, the whole range of factors why it was signed, but I think that people who have access to people in high places tell us that Greenham had a very significant impact on that. So that's good. You know, it set out to do what it and then the, the land was returned to the commons. So when, when.. [[What happened after Cruise left? Was it like 'the Cruise have gone, the women have gone, you know, job done’?|Yeah, I mean, even CND said, Oh, the Cruise have gone, the women have gone, you know, job done.’]] [[So Greenham Women really are everywhere..|Yeah. So you're, you know, you've talked quite a bit about Cruise Watch, and that was a mixed thing. But it was an example of a lot of spin off things that came out of Greenham. And for me, one of the key phrases right from the start was Greenham Women are everywhere. You didn't have to be,]]

That's not the case at all. That's not the case. I mean, there's a whole load of stuff. I mean, I got some files, there's still stuff - first of all, it doesn't all go away after the INF Treaty. I can't remember exactly when the missiles went - ’91? It took three years before they were all taken back. I might go in my file and have to correct this later. But, you know, the missiles were still there. Convoys still went out after the INF - we were still chasing convoys, the support still went out. And nobody’s - I don't know if we ever got to the bottom of why the convoy support still went out. But that's probably part of the whole sort of winding up of the military operation. So first of all - and then there's the whole stuff about the silos having to remain as part of the agreement. And I don't know when the inspections stopped, I think they have stopped now. So that there was a whole sort of thing that carried on and I know that, I know that the missiles were not the sort of focus for all women who went to Greenham. Because by the end, it's become its own sort of thing and its own culture and its own network. In a quite, a sort of, lot of other reasons for going there, really, rather than just focusing on nuclear weapons. [[So Greenham Women really are everywhere..|Yeah. So you're, you know, you've talked quite a bit about Cruise Watch, and that was a mixed thing. But it was an example of a lot of spin off things that came out of Greenham. And for me, one of the key phrases right from the start was Greenham Women are everywhere. You didn't have to be,]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, it's quite, it's quite interesting, because I've been helping do some work on a book about Women in Black. And certainly an awful lot of women who were in London Women in Black, were very, very focused on Greenham Women are everywhere. That was there. And London was super full of brilliant Greenham Women are everywhere, groups. And I think that an awful lot of contacts and network.. I mean, I think in a way - I mean, obviously, it's a generation thing, and it doesn’t.. but I think in a way that still exists. I know if I go to Hebden Bridge, I will see X, Y, and Z. I know if I go to Glasgow, I will see A, B and C, I know that they, that quite a lot of women will still be involved in some sort of peace or political work in in one way or another. Or working in, you know, sort of going back in a way to the origins working against violence against women. I mean, I think there's very strong links between quite a lot of women who were at Greenham and organisations against violence against women. And that whole sort of broader thing around - I don't know what you call it, you call it social justice, refugees, poverty, you know, all of those sorts of issues. I think there's a whole load of women who went off and did something after that was sort of, not directly inspired by Greenham Women are everywhere, but knowing that there are these networks where women know each other, and they know each other because of Greenham. And it, and it will be sad, because we know that, you know, a significant number of those women are now dead. You know, who sort of died in their sort of 80s or some of them younger? I mean, we try to I mean, I suppose Aldermaston is a Greenham Women are everywhere theme because it was set up - I mean, that's it, that's very much in the same vein. I'm trying to think of things that are sort of different. But I think it was quite a powerful thing at the time. And I think it was a really good statement because it avoided guilt tripping women who thought, oh, well, I can't go and live at Greenham for various reasons, but there are things I can do from where I am. And.. [[What did they do?|Greenham women everywhere 2]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Greenham women everywhere 2]]

I was reading the other day about a Greenham Women are everywhere Greenwich group, who went and protested at the Imperial War Museum in 1980 - something about an exhibition that didn't include anything about Greenham and then Women in Black in.. on those 10 years, 15 years later, went to the Imperial War Museum and protested about an exhibition called Women in War that didn't have anything about.. it had something about Greenham Women but it didn't have anything about Women in Black. So the Greenham Women succeeded in getting something about Greenham into the collections, including this beautiful photograph of all these Greenham Women outside the Imperial War Museum. And then the Woman in Black managed to get some Woman in Black t-shirt and various other things into the Imperial War Museum after their demonstrations where it's about continuity, I thought was really quite nice, even though is involving different women but they were both women from Greenham Women are everywhere sort of stuff. And I suppose some women who wanted to carry on living on the land were able to do that through various net.. I think they would become a much wider network. I mean, I don't know, you, you learn far more about it and whether it made it safer for women to travel because if you - or to be travellers, because you think about it, you know, in the middle of all of this is Battle of the Beanfield, in the middle of all of this is all of the anti traveller legislation, and the beginning of, you know, all sorts of subsequent repressions that we have seen against protest, or against people being in large groups where whatever. Because when we were doing Cruise Watch on Salisbury Plain the convoy was there and, and the, the day after the Battle of the Beanfield, I can't remember who I was with, but we went down to see what had happened. And it was just absolutely, you know, people forget that they were called the Peace Convoy, there was a lot of, you know, there's a bit of snobbery around in Cruise Watch, because there's a lot of nice middle class people in Cruise Watch who were not friends with the traveller community. But actually, all of those really significant things were going on around the same time. And if you think about it, this has nothing to do with Greenham Women are everywhere, well except it is because they were involved in Women Against Pit Closures, you know, the whole Thatcher government attack on the miners. And the whole thing around the miners strike was also happening at the same time. And one of the things that came together was, I think, in 1984, mostly, basically was very significant year because it was called 1984. And it certainly happened. And, I mean, I think the worst thing I remember, I'll go back to the other thing after. But the worst thing that happened that I remember was that one of the first, either the second or the third convoy went to a place called Longmore Ranges. And various things happened, but which were all pretty appalling - particularly because they didn't have proper military. They had reservists who were just very nervous, and essentially civilians with guns, who held 12 women in a pit on Longmore Ranges, for I don’t know, hours and hours. Now.. as.. and when a question was asked in the House of Commons, about the women who were held in the pit in Longmore Ranges at gunpoint - Hesletine I think was the Minister of Defence at the time said, ‘There is no pit.’ So that was the sort of - and it's quite hard to remember how I mean - I was looking at something that I've written around that time, how fucking frightened we were, that there was going to be a nuclear war. I think it's quite easy to forget that now. But when you get this - it’s 1984, and you get a government minister say there was no pit. It's, it's actually quite sort of chilling. And the thing that happened to us was for some reason that I'm not going to explain because it's so mad - four of us went off to Salisbury Plain to see if we could find a grave that had been dug. These things happened. And, and we didn't, and we were driving across Salisbury Plain in my 2CV green 2CV small car four women quite full. And then we got chased by a tank. And eventually, the tank caught up with us. I ripped off the bottom of my vehicle crossing a ploughed field, and we were taken to Devizes police station, and we were taken to the court in the morning. And we were banned from Wiltshire. And we were escorted out of Wiltshire by the police. Exactly the same as what was happening with the miners with the miners strike. And that sort of repression, systematic repression of protest of anything that was against the government is in the way I think that people forget how, you know… Because at Greenham we managed to get away with lots of stuff. You know, and you managed to do quite a lot of serious things without huge penalties being placed on people, whereas in the States people who are doing similar stuff, and in Italy, women who are doing similar stuff.. because they will you know, there was a peace movement Europe and across the world and in Australia, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on is, it was actually a great time of political repression and the beginning of the narrowing of protests that, you know.. We will see Priti Patel in a few weeks time coming out with another series of repressive bills and changes to public order. But it was, it was that beginning of a Public Order Act, so actually attacking people's right to protest. So I think, I think that was a significant time. And I think the brilliant thing about Greenham was the creativity and humour and sometimes fucking mad ideas that women had that in ways subverted that and made it very, very difficult for the police, for the authorities to actually deal with it. And I think that, you know, that's one thing that I think yeah, I think that's one of the sort of strengths of Greenham. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

(Laughing) No! I remember there was one pub that we could go to, which was off the double donut roundabout.. [[Yeah. |double donut Yeah.]] [[Yeah?|double donut Yeah.]]

I remember one night. I had, they had seven of us in my 2 green 2CV. The small people crouched in the sort of wells of the car. And we used to go there and, and play.. they had a pool table. And it was like the only place I think that you could, you could go into apart from the cafe in town. I can’t.. know what the cafe was called... that's it.. the Empire Grill, you could go there as well. And it was okay. [[Yeah. |empire grill yeah]] [[That's very limited!|empire grill yeah]]

And then this pub. And I think the reason that the pub was quite important was because it had a jukebox. And so there are certain songs, that when I hear them, I think of Greenham straight away. So there's Sade, Smooth Operator. [[Oh, yeah. |sade Oh, yeah. ]] [[I don't know that song..|sade Oh, yeah. ]]

There's Phil Collins, I hate to say Something in the Air. And, of course, some- what’s the name? Nothing Compares to You... [[Sinead O'Connor!|Sinead O'Connor!]] [[REM?|Sinead O'Connor!]] [[I don't know..|Sinead O'Connor!]]

Sinead O’Connor! You know, there were those sorts of you know, anthemic sort of songs that - there’s, there's probably a few more, you know, and then I hear them, I'm immediately sort of taken back to camp. Which isn't, I mean.. I'm not, I'm not a singer. But I always enjoyed the singing. And I think one of the things that sort of stayed with me really - and still stays with me is that idea of just being outside and sitting around the fire and talking, and maybe there's some singing or maybe somebody is playing something and that you're sort of aware of just, aware of being very much outside. I mean, you know, sometimes it's awful because it's like 4 o'clock and you think, how long is it before we can go to bed? Those sorts of evenings that just, you know - or where you're so cold on your back that, you know, you think you're never ever going to get warm, really. I think yeah, cold backs and cold bums and uncomfy and uncomfy chairs. But that whole sitting around the fire thing is, you know - I don't think I'd ever done that before. I mean, it was in the girl guides, but I don't think we were allowed to do that then. And I think that's just so, such an important thing for sort of learning and listening and exchanging and you know, and planning and just doing various things. But I think that just seemed very important. And you know I carried on doing it ever since really. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Once it gets dark, you know, some really intimate, difficult things can be broached, sometimes very personal things. Yeah, I think it is - it’s a, it’s a sort of really, archetypal culture.|once it got dark, you know, some really intimate, difficult things were broached, sometimes very personal things. It wasn't always politics, which we often disagreed with. But yeah, I think it is - it’s a, it’s a sort of really, archetypal culture.]] [[Were you involved in offshoots of Greenham, then? Like wasn't there a boat action on Southampton water?|like wasn't there a boat action on Southampton water?]]

Yes. And I think, I think that, that whole personal thing is, it sort of resonates with something because I was thinking yesterday and I was walking the dogs I was thinking about, I was thinking what we hadn't talked about. And then part of that was about being outside, and how amazing it is to live outside and what you hear and what you see. And, I don't know, just being aware of the environment that you're in, you know. Whether it's something like you know, going swimming in one of those really deep pools round by Emerald Gate, which is so deep that it's so cold, you know. I'd never come across a pool like that before, apart from sort of controlled access, you know, where you where you'd go, and it will be hidden sort of depths, you know, and that sort of, I don't know, the magic of how things change over the seasons and stuff like that. And that you're just so you know, and in winter, how fucking freezing it is and how cold, how cold, cold it gets. How cold it is. And I remember one of the first times that I went to Greenham - I went with my friend, Mary Alexander, and we both used to go to jumble sales an awful lot. So we both had matching pyjamas and so we went to bed with all our clothes on with our pyjamas over the top so we could still wear our pyjamas! (laughing). And, but also, so going back I think what struck me last night is what I hadn't talked about was the fact that we were doing it as women. And that there was a space for women to do things together, and be powerful, and be strong and get strength from other women and learn. You know, even if you thought like, what somebody was saying about the sort of, you know, configuration of your car and what it would be like, and attaching leads, and things that were a bit bonkers. It's just like that sort of diversity, really, of thoughts. But the whole, but that it was women doing stuff in a whole load of different ways and feeling and feeling strong and feeling powerful, and that the space for that is just being cut away from you know, it doesn't happen now. There are so few, you know - so that was just like a fuck off big space for women, really, and I - and historically, that is incredibly important. Because it's part of a time when, obviously, in the 1980s, there was a lot of - you know the GLC was funding lots of women's only groups. And there was lots of women's stuff going on. I mean, it probably was a sort of, you know, a parody of the, of the sort of - not the separatists women's movement, not necessarily, although some women were separatists - and not necessarily the lesbian bit of the women's movement. But just generally women did things as women together, and it didn't really matter that much where you were on the, you know, on the spectrum of, I don't know married heterosexual and and you know, separatist lesbian or whatever. It didn’t, it didn't really seem to matter. I don't think that there was a.. you know if I think about the group from Southampton, you know, there were quite a few dikes, there were quite a few women who were married. There were quite a few women who were heterosexual but single, but you know. There were women who were much older. There were women who are much younger. I think that's sort of quite unique, really. [[I would, I would call it autonomous women's spaces.|I would, I would call it autonomous women's spaces.]] [[Being together outside..|womens spaces 2]]

Yes. That's the word autonomous, which they still use in Serbia. You know, the Women's Centre that deals with violence against women is called the Autonomous Women's House. And it is yes, it was about autonomy. And in a way, a sort of invincibility, a sort of power I think, from from being - I was just walking last night and I was just thinking. I mean, it didn’t - the whole sexuality thing didn't really seem to matter. I mean, when I first went to Greenham and I was having some sort of vague affair with some bloke. And then I started seeing this woman, but it wasn’t - I don't know if it was because of Greenham. You know, it's like, I don't think I became a lesbian because of Greenham. But it was, it was easier - do you know what I mean? I mean, it was around the time of the - who, who wrote the book about political lesbianism because I remember the.. I remember quite a few women who were political lesbians that, and that was a thing fairly sort of early on. That was around the same time. But it was just.. it.. I don't know, I think, I think - it wasn't a completely uncomplicated time, you know, I know that lots of awful things happened at camp as well. But when you look at the overall social phenomena, yeah, it's a different social structure, it's creating a different, a different thing. And one of the things I used to think about because I used to be an archaeologist, I mean, I know, there have been excavations that have been conducted around some-where near between Emerald and Blue, I think of a camp that was there. They found some milk bottle tops thus proving women weren't vegans or something, I don't know. I'm sorry, it's too close, you know, you don't need that you've got the, you've got this sort of information, you've got information of all the stuff that's been written by people, by women who were at Greenham, and stuff like that. And if you look at it in strict archaeological terms, what you would have is this big defended fortress, full of the weapons of the patriarchy - because you get the bunkers leftover and unless they were burial burial chambers of important men, because that's how archaeology works. And around it, were these little tiny camps where you'd get these female things left behind. And that archaeologists in the future would interpret it as a site where women went to worship these male objects of mass destruction. Because, you know, in archaeology, people make up theories that suit them like Stonehenge and stuff like that, you know. Can be anything and I think, oh no, this is what the archaeologists will think it is. Because in terms of the sort of, you know, you've got the hard stuff inside and then you've got all this sort of tiny little remains in you know, outside where all these women come and pay tribute to the, the great God that lives within. Anyway, we've got historical context. Yes, make the //(laughing)//.. Yes, anyway, so yeah, that that was the sort of things I was thinking thinking about that. And also about yeah, also about not having to be clean. That was really nice. Having been an archaeologist, I spent quite a lot of my time not being clean. So it was something that I quite sort of enjoyed, really. I remember Hazel saying about her journeys back - I think it might have been from Aldermaston to Worthing, but it might have been Greenham as well, but when she sat on the train, people would avoid her because of the smell of the woodsmoke. But I love that smell. I just absolutely love that smell. Again, it's like the music. It's one of those things that sort of takes you back. [[Keep listening quietly..|womens spaces 2]] [[Were you involved in offshoots of Greenham? Like wasn't there a boat action on Southampton water?|like wasn't there a boat action on Southampton water?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

And even if I'm sort of, you know, sitting at a little fire now, although it was in a bowly thing you know, you still have that - yeah, I think I think a lot of the important things about Greenham - senses, not just the head stuff or the politics. But what you could see, what you could hear, what you could smell.. You know. hearing things. You have to use your sense of hearing, you know, when you're laying in a ditch somewhere, you're listening. Or you hear a rustle, and it's some birds coming up rather than the police coming from somewhere. Yeah, and a lot of being close to nature as in lying in ditches. And peeing, you know and peeing outside which a lot of women had real problems - a friend of mine who will remain nameless, we had to go and practice, for her to learn how to pee outside, because it really freaked her out. [[Especially after dark|Especially after dark. ]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes because - and also you learn to walk in the dark. I mean, you think you can't see anything, but actually, you can, after a few minutes, your eyes adjust. And, and you can walk in the dark and I mean, we did spend a lot of time either walking inside Greenham in the dark, although Greenham was quite well lit. I mean, there’s, there was quite a lot of - you had to avoid the lights in a lot of places. [[Floodlights?|Floodlights.]] [[From the base?|Floodlights.]]

Floodlights, and various other things and, and stuff. You know, especially if you wanted to go to the silos or the vehicle watch or somewhere like that. And erm - but on the Plain, it was completely dark. Completely dark until you got to where they'd stored the convoy. And my most scary moment was walking into a cow in the dark. Because there was this big, warm, fleshy thing. It's like, oh my god! What is it!? I still remember that. Because you couldn't see them, you couldn't see them. They were just, they must have been brown cows or something like that, rather than sort of Friesians or something. Yeah, that was really scary. Most scary moment walking into a cow in the dark. [[Better than walking into a ditch in the dark!|Better than walking into a ditch in the dark!]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. But I was just thinking about those things when I was yeah, when I was going for a little walk last night, it sort of reminded me, you know. Of how it can be lovely to be somewhere which is a site of sort of militarism and de-struction because of its beauty. And that is such a strange juxtaposition really. You know, you're somewhere horrible, and yet it can be very beautiful. [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh, god yes Sea Action! [[Were you there?|Were you there? ]] [[I mean you don't have to talk about everything but, um..|I mean you don't have to talk about everything but um.]]

Hmm! [[I mean you don't have to talk about everything but, um..|I mean you don't have to talk about everything but um.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|I mean you don't have to talk about everything but um.]]

No, I think, I think probably Sea Action was quite scary because I'm hopeless on boats. And we did go to.. I mean, there was a women's boat. [[Yeah. |sea action Yeah. ]] [[Yeah?|sea action Yeah. ]]

And I think at some point, we didn't always have it but at some point, we got custody of it. And I had, still had a green 2CV and had to carry.. drag this inflatable because I actually had a tow bar and having oh - did they pay for me to have to, because nobody wanted to actually drive it. That was, that was scary with a tow bar but we used to take action mainly around Portsmouth or Gosport with US, either US military massive aircraft carriers that were coming in, or to do with the nuclear warheads which were being brought into Portsmouth because they, before they started taking them by road, as they do currently with Trident, they actually used to take them by sea so that they come from Coalport all the way down to Portsmouth, and then they'd go back up to be serviced. And so it was also associated with that. So if submarines were.. and submarines would come in as well. And we used to have to wear wetsuits. And there was somebody who used to go to every single jumble sale they possibly could, and get the wetsuits so that there were always wetsuits for everybody. And we did do training at Calshot training centre. So, I mean I didn't have a clue what to do with boats. I was absolutely petrified most of the time. And when I met my current partner, who likes doing things on boats, I just thought, this relationship really isn't going anywhere. Because I can see she's completely enjoying herself with this, and I think I'm going to die. So I was really scared. Yeah, all I can say is that we did lots of actions, we.. [[Well here we are Sian, love conquers all!|Well here we are Sian, love conquers all!]] [[Keep istening quietly..|Well here we are Sian, love conquers all!]]

We also did some very, very foolish things. And I remember one particular thing at the, I mean, at the.. a group of women in the women's boat at the Portsmouth arms fair, where four of us who didn't have a clue what we were doing really were zooming around. And it was great, because the arms fair was actually on an island. And it was possible - I didn't get onto the island, but some other women did manage to get onto the island and into the arms fair. But we were trying to do that thing. And they started buzzing us with, one of those - you see I'm so technical, one of those planes that goes up, and then it pushes a lot of air down to make it go off. Anyway, it was just like we were being blasted with hot air from this plane above in order to get rid of us. And we were boiling. And the water was all turbulent. And somebody, who shall remain nameless, who I didn't really know at that time and her friends were just laughing. Because we just couldn't we’d just stupidly gone under the, under the path of this massive aircraft, which could have, we found out later, could have killed us. But anyway, we were so stupid. We didn't know. I mean, you know, there were some people who really, really knew what they were doing. And we relied on them. Yeah, sorry, but it was just, I mean, there's a lot of things we did that were very, very risky. I think that we had an awful lot of confidence about it, you know, that we thought, we can do this. And I think there’s, there was a very high amount of adrenaline involved. You know, like in actions and yeah, in any action, I mean, it's a high adrenaline count. I think that's what kept a lot of interest which was quite good. I don't know what happened to Sea Action in the end - I was the treasurer of Sea Action, and I was sorting out some paperwork. I think, I think I don't know. Yeah, I don't know how that finished. You'd have to talk to somebody else who's involved in it. [[Did you use any other transport? Bicycles?|And also, that was, I mean, I remember this is something that really came out of Blue Gate, but it was the peace tours. And then years cycling, and then then a year when we used vehicles and I did that one up and met you up at Menwick in Scotland.]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think the cycling ones were a bit later. I think they came out of Aldermaston, the first Women on the Road for Peace on bikes.. outside the gate at Aldermaston. And then there was a few.. There was a couple of those I think maybe three, two or three. [[Yeah, just around sort of Hampshire. |Yeah, just around sort of Hampshire.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Yeah, just around sort of Hampshire.]]

And as far as sort of the arms fair place, Farnborough where there's a lot - I think that was the sort of, going up towards London. I went on the - I didn't go on the first Women on the Road for Peace tour. But I went on two others and yeah, that was great. That was such a good idea. It involved that sort of Greenham network but also involved an awful lot of other people who'd been to the Greenham. And it was, especially after Greenham was sort of not so much the focus, when it was the sort of - the missiles had gone and there were fewer women coming to Greenham, but there were still a lot of Greenham Women around the countryside. So it was very easy to make contact with them - or I think sometimes contact if there weren't any Greenham Women around would make contact with CND groups or whatever - so that we had an itinerary. We went from base to base, we were very rarely anywhere more than one night, which was very good in terms of escaping although quite complicated if people got held overnight. And it was, it was very targeted, I think, in terms of raising issues, and broader than the nuclear issue, but around the sort of military, the militaristic nature of Britain and the number of sites of militarism that were around. And I think in some ways, it gave a lot of you know, local groups were quite pleased that somebody turned up to do something. Because, you know, in the sort of early 80s, I remember there being a map produced which showed 182 military sites in Britain with US whatever. And that focus, you know, back when there were peace camps absolutely every-where yeah, had just gone away. And so though there were very, very few, very, very few camps - and also, you know, people went and gave - sometimes people gave talks to local groups or local groups came and visited us for supper. And when we went to Porton Down, I will say that the Salisbury group nearly killed us all, because they made us a very nice TVP stew with chocolate in it, like some sort of, you know, South American version of a beef stewed beef recipe. But they made it with TVP, which in those days was not as highly processed as it is now. And a large number of women, some women were very, very ill, and other women were not quite so ill. One particular woman I know was going to go and do a talk somewhere but had to turn around and go back. But it seemed ironic that we were being poisoned outside Porton Down. I mean they were very kind. And they didn't mean to do that. But it was really really bad (laughing). [[Oh my goodness!|Yeah, just around sort of hampshire 2]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Yeah, just around sort of hampshire 2]]

But yeah, and it was - I mean, obviously, you know, there were certain people who'd get left behind or who'd left their guitar behind and you'd have to go back sort of a long way and find them. It was, it was it was good. And I think it was a really good thing to do. And that sort of network - there was a mailing list for that network, which sort of came from the Green from Greenham's mailing list. And when we started doing, Women's Aid to Former Yugoslavia which emerged really out of the.. emerged out of the Greenham network, but very specifically out of the arms fair in Portsmouth because the Yugoslav government was there. And at that time, it was the 11th biggest arms producer in the world. And it was clear that the the war was, was, was was about to happen, or that various wars were about to happen. And it's sort of, it sort of arose from a discussion around there and I think a discussion at Blue Gate at some point. And we had this sort of, war is menstrual envy thought. And I think the initial idea was just to take sanitary towels. But obviously it got more refined than that. And so basically, with the exception of a few sort of added Quakers, essentially, it was Greenham Women. I think, yeah, all the way through from ’92 to ’99, which was the last convoy, the one that went to Kosovo. All of the women who were involved I think, there was one woman who wasn't a Greenham woman. Anyway - but she was involved with stuff up North. It was, yeah, it's quite interesting because I think that it had an ethos to it that I never encountered with any other - apart from the odd group that you'd meet, who were doing things with respect for the refugees that we were taking stuff for. And I think that came from the fact that I suppose all of us had spent a lot of time thinking about war, and what would happen. And, you know, what we understood by war. [[How did you decide who to work with?|Yeah just sort of around hampshire 3]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

So I think there are a number of principles. One was that we worked with everybody. We worked in every ethnic group. And we worked with women who were trying to bridge those divides. We didn't work with nationalist groups. And there were very many nationalist groups. And very many women, women, nationalist groups, I mean, who would blame everybody else for everything. So it was those women who were doing sort of transversal politics, and women who were trying to keep the links between the different countries. Women who remained in contact and still remain in contact with each other. You know, I mean, that's the really lovely thing about it, is, you know, I was at a Zoom meeting the other day, and there was a woman from Croatia, then there was one from Belgrade there. You know, they've known each other and been in touch with each other and, you know, all the time since ’91. And are part of that same grouping, you know, it's just really, really, that sort of commitment to working across boundaries. And also a commitment to, you know - we wrote to UNHCR, and various other people, and asked them to send us some just general guiding principles about taking aid and they didn't take any, they didn't give us anything. We, you know, we just discovered that it was a whole world of corruption and awfulness. And so everything we took was new. As far as I remember - I think we made some exceptions when people asked us for shopping trolleys, or something. And everything that we took was what was asked for. Or if we got offered something that hadn't been asked for we would bring and say ‘Do you want to have this? Yes or no?' And if we people didn't want it, we would sell it. And we’d do car boot sales to get rid of things. We'd also sell - we did a big thing around underwear for women, which was supported by Cosmopolitan, and the Women's Institute. And also that network of Greenham Women everywhere. There were Greenham Women in different groups around the country who would raise money, and then go to their local market and buy a big box of knickers and send them to us. You know, it was just - or like, somebody might send us a pair of knickers or something. So that, so that - we really, really tried very hard to make sure that what we were taking would be needed. Because we would go to refugee camps where we would meet women, you know, sitting in the sort of sheds, in refugee camps, and there'd be 800 teddy's you know, and they'd be strung up on the walls because people had bought stuff that they didn't want. And I remember meeting one group that I thought, god, you're doing the right thing. It was a group of hairdressers driving around in the van, going to refugee camps and cutting hair. I just thought yes, that's what you, you know. That's what you need, to be doing doing stuff that is, you know - or people who would do the same with fruit because people weren't getting nutritious food and they weren't getting good meals and people would just go and go to a fruiter and load up with a big lorry and then just drive around and see who wanted it. There was a group in Croatia that did that. And that just seemed appropriate. And I'll just tell you one moment, which is one of my favourite moments is when we got given loads and loads of, they very generously donated us I think about a tonne of washing powder. And we were working with a women's laundry in Packrats Across Boundaries, where Serbian and Croatian women were trying to work together. We gave it to the women who did the laundry in Packrats and they said, ’We can't take all this we just really can’t.' They said, ‘Go and give it to somebody else.’ And then we went to another camp, which was very temporary that had been.. people had just moved in to workers, construction workers cabins because there was nowhere else for them to be. And we were taking sanitary towels and basically stuff like that. And we said, ‘Is there anything else you need?’ And this woman said, ‘We really need some washing powder.’ And it was like, magic truck moment. And we opened the back of the truck. And we said, ‘Take it.’ That was really nice. [[You also had skills, I suppose, to share..|I think also we should mention the rape, rape crisis training.I think also we should mention the rape, rape crisis training.]] [[I think also we should mention the rape, rape crisis training.|I think also we should mention the rape, rape crisis training.I think also we should mention the rape, rape crisis training.]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think that obviously, you know, aid is useful, but it just papers over the cracks, really. And the the commitment that we were able to do, because of the funds that we were able to raise and the generosity that people had meant that first of all, we were able to fund people from Dublin and somewhere else to go and do training. I mean, this is because.. Right.. Background, for people who don't know: Allegations of rapes were made by a group called Trešnjevka, which is one of the nationalist women's groups, a Croatian group who found this out from a lot of the Bosnian women who are fleeing to Croatia as refugees. And it gradually became more widely known. So we actually ended up working with a different group on it, because they were using it for the nationalist project. And then we found some women who weren't doing that. And so from that beginning of providing - and it wasn't just training in counselling women who have been raped because a lot of women were still very, very reluctant to actually even mention the rapes, but trauma counselling generally. And a lot of them had lost their families, their sons or their husbands and their friends. There was - it extended into bereavement counselling, and wasn't - they put together a really, really - I wasn't involved with the organising of that - but the programme was really, really well put together. But yeah, so there were quite a lot of offshoots to it, which weren't just about taking aid. But also was about keeping in touch with those women's groups. And, you know, I know now how much they appreciated - and it's quite interesting as far as Women in Black are concerned, because I've now met Women in Black from Italy, who used to go there and do the same thing. And Women in Black in the Netherlands who also took convoys of aid.. We never saw each other while we were doing that, but we're all still, you know, that in a way is a little bit like Greenham. It's an experience that a lot of women went through, and somehow has held that group - some at a length some very, very close together. And, yeah, again, it's like a space. Yeah, it's coming back to this sort of space for women thing, really. To sort of, you know, nourish each other. And I mean, I'm part of a Women in Black lesbian group now, which has got women from about 20 different countries, and we have a Zoom meeting once a month. And I think it's really important. Somehow, just this sort of knowing and understanding and looking at, looking at where women are at now, who've sort of done all these years. You know, we're all about the same age, and like talking to women in the US about what they've been going through for the last, you know, year especially, and women in South Africa who are dealing with Covid, and what that's doing and stuff. [[What is Women In Black, please?|Rape Crisis training 2]] [[Am I correct in thinking that that Women in Black actually was initially, initially be-tween Israeli and Palestinian women?|am I correct in thinking that that Women in Black actually was initially, initially be-tween Israeli and Palestinian women?]]

So Women in Black, for information purposes, is one of the organisations WATFY was in touch with - Women in Black was, is an anti-militarist group, specifically against war and violence against women. So against war, against militarism, and against violence against women and sees the continuity between all of those. And I think for me, meeting that group in ’92 was when all my politics fitted together because at Greenham there was like women, and there was nuclear weapons. And there was internationalism, and there was non violence. But the militarism that constructs everybody's daily lives wasn't a sort of big thing on the agenda. That whole infrastructure that makes war possible that gives consent for war and violence and stuff like that to happen. And there's clear links between violence in the community, violence in the home - and the violence of militarism wasn't actually part - and it may be mainly that I didn't meet the women who were thinking those things. But I wasn't thinking those things then. The women who were Women in Black in 1992, it was just like, all the pieces had fallen into place. And it all made sense. So that - and also the, the transversal politics and working across boundaries, the not making a difference, not having enemies, you know, and working within what, you know, the other communities that were in the war with you. So yeah, I think I think for me, that's.. [[How did Women In Black start?|Israeli palestinian women version 2]] [[Are Women In Black still active?|Israeli Palestinian Women 2]]

Yes, originally set up in the Second Intifada in 1988, then women from Italy, went to Israel and Palestine to give them support, they brought the idea back to Italy. Then when the war broke out in Yugoslavia, they went to Yugoslavia with that idea, and it was picked up, especially by women in Belgrade. And then during the war, all these different women's groups would go to visit different organisations. And although they weren't called Women in Black in the other countries, there was this network of pre war feminists who, who identified clearly as feminists who identified as non-nationalist, a lot of them identified as Yugoslav, because they didn't want to be a Croat or whatever. And then they had a series of conferences, some of them during the war. I went to one, last year of the war think. And then those became more and more international, because they started off being like, of women from the region, especially refugees who ended up in Belgrade, and they got bigger. And so from that, you know - say a woman might come from France and go home and set up a Women in Black group or like Laurence went and stayed with Women in Black, I think for about six years, you know, so the network grew. And now I would say there's Women in Black, mainly in Europe, but also in South Africa, in various Latin American countries. And the most recent group is a group in Armenia, which I suppose is Europe, but it's sort of central, Central Europe. And so that, you know, that has been really difficult this last year where Armenia and Azerbaijan have been at war. And some of the members of the group have lost family, brothers. I mean, you know - and so in a way Women in Black has been able to support them and send them in a way well, we were doing but not directly - but actually send money so that they can actually sup-port the refugees. And I think there is a hope that there will be a way of bringing Azerbaijani women together with Armenian women to make that cross - but that that's something that's being discussed for a possible zoom conference later in the year. So I suppose yeah, I suppose it's all sort of ongoing. It feels a bit difficult now under Covid, and stuff like that, where there's not that sort of immediacy of being able to actually do things. [[How did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your own life, as well as in a broader cultural meaning?|how did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your life as well as in a broader cultural meaning as well?]] [[It also reminds me of Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, which was, they were, they've been around for a very long time unlike Women in Black. I mean, they were - no they weren't that link - that movement was already there at the beginning of Greenham, wasn't it?|It also reminds me of Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, which yes, was, they were, they've been around for a very long time unlike Women in Black. I mean, they were - no they weren't that link - that movement was already there at the beginning of Greenham, wasn't it?]] [[How did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your own life, as well as in a broader cultural meaning?|how did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your life as well as in a broader cultural meaning as well?]]

Now I would say there's Women in Black, mainly in Europe, but also in South Africa, in various Latin American countries. And the most recent group is a group in Armenia, which I suppose is Europe, but it's sort of central, Central Europe. And so that, you know, that has been really difficult this last year where Armenia and Azerbaijan have been at war. And some of the members of the group have lost family, brothers. I mean, you know - and so in a way Women in Black has been able to support them and send them in a way well, we were doing but not directly - but actually send money so that they can actually sup-port the refugees. And I think there is a hope that there will be a way of bringing Azerbaijani women together with Armenian women to make that cross - but that that's something that's being discussed for a possible zoom conference later in the year. So I suppose yeah, I suppose it's all sort of ongoing. It feels a bit difficult now under Covid, and stuff like that, where there's not that sort of immediacy of being able to actually do things. [[It also reminds me of Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, which was, they were, they've been around for a very long time unlike Women in Black. I mean, they were - no they weren't that link - that movement was already there at the beginning of Greenham, wasn't it?|It also reminds me of Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, which yes, was, they were, they've been around for a very long time unlike Women in Black. I mean, they were - no they weren't that link - that movement was already there at the beginning of Greenham, wasn't it?]] [[How did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your own life, as well as in a broader cultural meaning?|how did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your life as well as in a broader cultural meaning as well?]]

Originally set up in the Second Intifada in 1988, then women from Italy, went to Israel and Palestine to give them support, they brought the idea back to Italy. Then when the war broke out in Yugoslavia, they went to Yugoslavia with that idea, and it was picked up, especially by women in Belgrade. And then during the war, all these different women's groups would go to visit different organisations. And although they weren't called Women in Black in the other countries, there was this network of pre war feminists who, who identified clearly as feminists who identified as non-nationalist, a lot of them identified as Yugoslav, because they didn't want to be a Croat or whatever. And then they had a series of conferences, some of them during the war. I went to one, last year of the war think. And then those became more and more international, because they started off being like, of women from the region, especially refugees who ended up in Belgrade, and they got bigger. And so from that, you know - say a woman might come from France and go home and set up a Women in Black group or like Laurence went and stayed with Women in Black, I think for about six years, you know, so the network grew. And now I would say there's Women in Black, mainly in Europe, but also in South Africa, in various Latin American countries. And the most recent group is a group in Armenia, which I suppose is Europe, but it's sort of central, Central Europe. And so that, you know, that has been really difficult this last year where Armenia and Azerbaijan have been at war. And some of the members of the group have lost family, brothers. I mean, you know - and so in a way Women in Black has been able to support them and send them in a way well, we were doing but not directly - but actually send money so that they can actually sup-port the refugees. And I think there is a hope that there will be a way of bringing Azerbaijani women together with Armenian women to make that cross - but that that's something that's being discussed for a possible zoom conference later in the year. So I suppose yeah, I suppose it's all sort of ongoing. It feels a bit difficult now under Covid, and stuff like that, where there's not that sort of immediacy of being able to actually do things. [[It also reminds me of Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, which was, they were, they've been around for a very long time unlike Women in Black. I mean, they were - no they weren't that link - that movement was already there at the beginning of Greenham, wasn't it?|It also reminds me of Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, which yes, was, they were, they've been around for a very long time unlike Women in Black. I mean, they were - no they weren't that link - that movement was already there at the beginning of Greenham, wasn't it?]] [[How did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your own life, as well as in a broader cultural meaning?|how did your involvement with Greenham change your life? You know, what impact do you feel it had on your life as well as in a broader cultural meaning as well?]]

First World War. Yeah, yeah. Because it brought together women. I mean, one of the things we're doing in this book that is being written about the history of Women in Black is looking at the antecedents. The influences and what you know, and obviously, Greenham is one and WILPF, is one of the others and there were many WILPF women who were part of Greenham. And there were many WILPF women who also continued to be part Aldermaston as well. And one of the interesting things now about WILPF is that they set up this organisation 10 years ago called Voices of African women, which is something that, you know - we talked about the sort of whiteness of Greenham and the, you know, generally the whiteness of the peace movement. But there are women within that group who are working within WILPF, and influencing Women in Black and also doing joint vigils with Women in Black in London. You know, to sort of bring these things much closer together, because, you know, I think, really, they're, they're, you know, we're living in such a fucking racist society that it is racist not to actually address those structural issues, or at least try and shed light on things, which are, you know - I think, I think that because this is about violence in the community, and it doesn't really matter whether it's violence against women or violence against men. There is a violence within communities, that is being directed disproportionately at people of colour. And it's not just, it's not just a physical violence, you know, it's like a some sort of structural violence, which, you know, affects outcomes for women's health and affects all sorts of things. So there's, there's so many interlinking things and there's things then that interlink with, with the need to sort of address the issue of of climate change and the climate emergency. Yeah, it doesn't stop really. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

How did it change.. I saw camping as the way of delivering politics. I loved it, you know. Yeah, camping, direct action, all of those sorts of things. It just, yeah, doing things and actually, you know, physically challenging the boundaries of, of militarism, you know, but that's what you do. You went and you went at the edge of it, you didn't march up and down, in fact, in London, walking back and forth going ban the bomb. You went there, and you did something that would undermine that institution. Or would, you know, and I think, I don't know, maybe I didn't mention, you know, the sort of amazing creativity and humour with which Greenham did it, the inventiveness. You know, you had to invent different things to do and you’d spend hours and hours doing really stupid things like making fairy outfits for small children so you could have a teddy bears picnic or something inside the base and put the small children over the fence. I don't know. Just, just that sense that you don't actually have to do politics you know in a particular way. That, there's all sorts of ways of doing - and I miss it. You know, after I left Aldermaston there was like a big, big, big gap, really. Because that is the way to do it. [[Yeah. |Yeah. ]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And, you know, it's not something that's going to reinvent itself again, which is, you know - I mean there are different ways of doing politics. And, you know, there’s, there's a sort of legacy as well that, I think, that maybe isn't appreciated from Greenham. I mean, on a very simple level, all the CB radios that we used for Cruise Watch we gave to the anti-roads, protesters who were up in the trees around Newbury. And the same people or some of the same people who'd supported Greenham started supporting the Newbury tree protesters, you know. And there were certain things I mean, yeah, okay, maybe at Greenham we didn't dig tunnels, but there's certain elements of how you take direct action, how you have, how you do things. That there is, I think, a sort of legacy, you see it in all sorts of protests, and particularly environmental protests that happen now. You know, there was a lot of thinking that went on. And some it might have seemed a little bit tedious. And obviously, you know, there were very, very diverse opinions about stuff. There were certainly very diverse opinions about stopping the convoy. You know, but those debates were had. And I think that's the important thing, that there was a lot of thinking around what you should do. A lot of planning. There was consideration about what is safe, what is harmful, you know, that what you would not do, and what you would do. And of course it would vary, but I think that those sort of discussions are just like really, really important. And I think that maybe, and I'm probably generalising here, it was easier for women to have those discussions about non-violence with each other. I think it was 2000 that some of us spent the night on top of the silos on New Year's Eve, and we watched the fireworks and we could see fireworks from five different places. It was amazing. It was just like we had our own orchestra of fireworks going off. But it was just the best decision. It was such a wonder and it was just really, I mean, I'd been on the silos before but it was just that sort of, yeah, these are back now. These are proper land and we can see all the rest of the land around it. So it's lovely. That was really, really nice. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Ask Sian Jones another question..|Sian Jones]] [[Thank Sian Jones, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Let's start at the beginning, shall we? Well, it wasn't the beginning. But it was my beginning. I suppose you want to hear a story and they go well, it depends what it's about. And I it's about women’s absolute.. being so powerful and changing the world just by loving women. [[Well, let's start there, tell us your story Zohl.|Well, let's start there, tell us your story Zohl. ]] [[How did you first come to Greenham?|Well, let's start there, tell us your story Zohl. ]]

I came.. I start.. my road to Greenham started in Australia. When, in the end of 1982 - so, the end of 1982, I saw these women, New Year's Eve dancing on the silos at Greenham. And I was just at that moment taking off to ride a bicycle around the world for peace, disarmament in a nuclear free future. And we travelled for, we travelled through many countries in Europe. And eventually I met a woman from, two women from Greenham, in Sweden. And they said, ‘Why don't you come to Greenham with us?’ So I left the world bike ride, and ended up going down to Geneva. Before that, I should say that on the world bike ride, because we were riding bicycles, for peace, we carried stories inside us. And the stories I carried inside me were the stories of the impact of nuclear testing by the United States and others in the Marshall Islands and other places in the Pacific, including, as you would know, Australia. So I was carrying that story. And every time we go into a village, we would stop and we would have an event at the local hall. And we would all stand up and tell stories. There was 15 of us on the world bike ride in Europe, and there was 50, in, when we were in Australia. So while we were travelling through Australia, we met with a lot of First Nations people and learnt from them. But we also picked up other information. We knew we were heading for Europe, we wanted Europe to take responsibility for their history, and specifically wanted England to take responsibility for its history in the Pacific. And so, when the world bike ride went overseas to become the world bike ride, the idea was Canberra to Canberra via the world. I got on a bicycle and pushed very fast over the water and got to Copenhagen and started from there. We went to conferences including - we were the first non government organisation allowed into Czechoslovakia. We went in under the wings of guys, on roofs with machine guns. And we rode through Czechoslovakia. And we rode through Hungary and not in the way that the powers that be in those places wanted us to - but in our way of a bunch of hippies on bicycles riding for peace through East and West Europe at the time. So when I met these women at Sweden, in Sweden, I said, ‘Talk to me about Greenham.’ I knew that it was these women dancing on the silos. So I was like, ‘Yeah, I'm coming.’ So I left the world bike ride, went down to Geneva. And in Geneva, there was the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty conversations taking place, and we decided that we would occupy the US and the United States, the US and the Soviet Union embassies in Geneva. So there was me quite blithely sitting on our side of the hill with a notepad sketching both embassies - I mean, you would never get away with it these days. And then I took my sketches back to where we were staying and gave a lecture about how to invade the embassies. I didn't actually go in, I decided that I wanted to dance in the street in front of the media instead of disappearing inside the base, the embassies. So yeah, so then I ended up at Greenham Common, followed those women to Greenham and went to Green Gate. Best place in the world Green Gate, beautiful. [[What made it the best place in the world?|What made it the best place in the world?]] [[When you were there, what forms of non-violent direct action did you take part in?|When you were there, what forms of non-violent direct action did you take part in?]]

What made it the best place in the world was the trees. Like we weren't on the side of a busy street. We were in the - on the common itself, we were very engaged with the land there. We were very engaged, we were right next to the silos, so I slept with the silos for years. And, and, you know, like just, you know, what 500 yards away from the silos where they kept the nuclear weapons - and, and we were also the separatists camp. So we were the only camp that men weren't welcome in. Which was brilliant, because there always needs to be a space like that for women who want that sort of space. But Greenham had - its nine miles around.. it had, at one time it had 13 different camps. They were different colours of the rainbow. Like if you wanted to go to Blue Gate, if you want to be vegan, you get.. went to Blue Gate, and you dyed your hair blue. If you wanted to go in and have parties with the male squaddies every Friday night, well, you lived at Violet Gate, and you just cut the fence on Friday nights and walked in and had parties with the guys. So you know if you wanted to be on the media all the time you lived at Yellow Gate which was the original and the main gate. So you'd go there. So it catered for all types and that was his strength. I mean, and yeah, if you didn’t, if you had an argument with one person one day at one gate, you'd just move to the next one. Until it calmed down and go back again, which is a very ancient procedure for actually dealing with conflict. [[Yeah. |gates Yeah. ]] [[When you were there, what forms of non-violent direct action did you take part in?|When you were there, what forms of non-violent direct action did you take part in?]]

So yeah, it really, really worked. And every woman was totally 100% empow-ered, autonomous, with 100% responsibility for their actions. And with 100% respect for each other. Might not like each other, but we had respect for each other. And yeah, in that, that's how I want to live that, my whole life. That's how I want to live the rest of my life and I really miss Greenham I really - I left earlier than I wanted to and I'm keen to come back and go to Greenham and live at Greenham again. [[What caused you to leave?|What caused you to leave?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

My Mother was.. I was rung and they told me my Mum was dying and so I needed to get on the plane and Australia in those days was a very very long way, much longer way away from England than it is now. Well Coronavirus has changed that but yeah. So yeah went home and continued my work in the Pacific. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[When you were there, what forms of non-violent direct action did you take part in?|When you were there, what forms of non-violent direct action did you take part in?]]

Oh, look, I think I got arrested like nine times or something but um, I only got arrested when I wasn't doing anything. So one of the.. one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was the day that I went invisible. I wasn't planning this I didn't know about being invisible. But they came in and they wiped - the day they totally decimated Yellow Gate. The Yellow Gate camp, they dropped it to the ground and all the women were pushed over to the other side of the road except for myself, and a group of other women. Oh, there is actually a photo that appeared in - I don't know who took photo but there's a photo of us sitting. We just started to build a fire and boil the kettle. And the police just walked around us like we weren't there. And anyways, those other women sort of disappeared off and I was by myself. So I thought, okay, I'll get on top of the mound, and I'll wave to the women on the other side of the road, let them know I'm here. And somebody on the other side of that road, had a camera and took a series of shots with the police as they slowly came to realise that there was a Greenham Common woman amongst them. And what happened - it took me a while to figure it out. But I assumed that the other women were police women under disguise. Because I had never seen them before. And I guess, you know, maybe they had other stories, but no one ever told that story. So I suspected they were police women who had infiltrated the camp. We were infiltrated several times by media by, you know, American spies by Russian spies, you know, like, it's easy to infiltrate. I mean, we don't even give a toss about who was infiltrating it's like, how much education could they pick up while they were there? That's what we wanted. More interested in would they learn where they were going wrong? So somehow, I think it was assumed that I was one of the undercover police women who had infiltrated first, but that's a story that I have no proof over. But I came to the conclusion that I was actually there by myself, didn’t make sense why the police would not, you know, pounce in on me and drag me across the road. So yeah. [[Tell us about some of the times that you got arrested.|Tell us about some of the times that you got arrested.]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, one of the one of the times I got arrested was when Heathrow was on. So there was, in Australia, a group of women following the Greenham inspiration, and there were other women's camps all growing up all around the world. There was one at Pine Gap. Now what year was Pine Gap - 1984? So anyway, in 1983, I rode into Greenham Common on my bicycle, it was my 30th birthday. I made sure I arrived on my 30th birthday. And went to Green Gate, which is where the women I'd met in Sweden were. And that was just before a big, you know, like bring your black cardigans and we're going to cut things. But the soldiers had built up the whole inside of the things with razor wire. So when we started cutting the fence with our BCs, with our black cardigans, our bolt cutters, they, they couldn't get at us there was just police on our side. And the soldiers were all locked inside this gate, this fence with razor wire that they couldn't climb through. I don't know why they had difficulty climbing through the razor wire because we were really good at it. So anyway, they couldn't get through the razor wire to us and one of the things I did that day knowing that - well we just been, had a visitor from one of the Australian women for survival had come to Greenham and and she had she’d come for this action and she had had come to tell us about the camp that we're having at Pine Gap which is in the middle of Australia, right next to Alice Springs plonk in the middle of Australia. It's a massive communication control command and intelligence base. Has been there for a long time and definitely was there at that particular time. Um, so I rode around the day that we had that big Embrace of Base I think we were (inaudible) at that stage. I can't remember what which Embrace the Base it actually was but it was the end of 1983 and I rode my bicycle around the base. And I cut the fence, I cut some fence - I cut a circle out of the fence.. [[Oh wow..|fence Oh wow!]] [[Keep listening quietly..|fence Oh wow!]]

So I cut this fence, Greenham fence, and I rode around the base and women tied their magic stuff onto it. And a woman turned up and we sent it back to - I told you the woman turned up, we sent it back to Pine Gap. [[Wow. |fence more Wow. ]] [[Keep listening quietly..|fence more Wow. ]]

It's a message wheel from Greenham. And it arrived at Pine Gap Women's Peace Camp the same day that.. it arrived the same day that they were having their 111 Karen Silkwood's. You know the Karen Silkwood woman? The woman who made a lot of knowledge and was murdered because she was making a lot of noise in the United States around nuclear, nuclear weapons and nuclear power? [[Yes..|Karen Silkwood]] [[No..|Karen Silkwood]]

Anyway, 111 Karen Silkwood's got arrested that day. And they, so they went off and hacked - but one of the things they did before they did that is they took the gate off Pine Gap and they then, they cut some wire out of it. And they sent, they, they tied their precious things onto it and found its way back to Greenham and and that's it. It's still at, it's in Newbury. One of the commoners, one of the local women who had common rights to the common that was taken away and turned into a military base - so there's a whole heap of commoners doing a lot of protests in, supporting Greenham Women as well, as we were supporting them. And they, she's got it in her house and I met up with her on Zoom recently and she's still got it. And the Pine Gap one is in, is in Newbury. So it's so lovely to see her on Zoom and going really strong because she was just like, a total rock to Greenham Women. You know, there was a whole group of locals that just supported us so much. When women first arrived at Greenham in September in 1981 these two women were amongst the first to be there. And they stayed with us all the way through. Absolutely stunning, so that's the Pine Gap fence. And so, you were asking me about a time when I was arrested - what was I doing? One of the things I really liked about the police is when we would do blockades - now, I never sat down in a blockade. I was too busy clowning with the, with the police officers. You know, they'd stand up, they're all really you know, like rough and tough, you know, like, and I would just sit there and just mimic them. Not sit there, I'd stand right next to them and mimic them. And it would drive them nuts. And I really loved doing that. So that was pretty awesome. Now so I'll tell you about Pine Gap Women's Peace Camp, that happened. And we exchanged the, exchanged fence which is still in existence today. And then a year later, in 19, 19 let's check, that’s 1983. So now we're in 1984 and - but the women in Australia decided to have Coburn Sound Women's Peace Camp which is a, it's a port down south of Perth on the bottom of Australia's west coast. And we couldn't get there. So we decided that we would go as close to it as we could. And the closest to it we could was Heathrow Airport. So we sat down in Heathrow airport and we, we sat in a circle in the main lounge and sang Greenham songs - what else would you do? And we had postcards with us and the postcards, we gave them to people who are getting on the planes to go to Australia and say ‘Will you post this for us?’ In the hope that at least one would get through to the camp. I don't, to this day I don't know if any got through camp, but we were there. And of course as the ringleader I'm the one that got arrested. But so did my partner, Bridget, at the time. So actually, I think there was two or three other women as well so we spent the whole, we spent four days in Bow Street lockup. So the day that we were let out of Bow Street lockup, um, well hold on, one of the things that I did at Bow Street is I smuggled a pencil in, right. So I managed to you know, you get strip searched and all that sort of stuff and by strip search I mean like you know, bend over and cough sort of things - which they later declared was illegal but, on their behalf, but they are, they - so many of us went by different names like not our own name I used to get arrested as Mara Linga so Mara Linga. Maralinga is a place in one of the places in south Australia that the English did all the nuclear testing. One day here in Australia I even got arrested here just down the road and ‘What’s your name?' ‘Mara.’ 'What's your last name?’ ‘Linga.’ And Maralinga's just up the road a bit. The cop didn't pick it up. Obviously from another place altogether. But um, you know, like, in England I was Mara Linga we had Frieda People, Frieda People you know, we had all kinds of stuff going on. So those of us that, that worked through pseudonyms couldn't take them to court to get compensation for having been stripped searched, but yeah. So, so I managed to get a pencil in and then I wrote this.. I spent the whole four days writing this very long letter to go to Coburn. I don't know what's happened to it. But but it was a, it was a beautiful letter. It just went on and on and for days kept me occupied. It was great. I think that's what I mean by it was a beautiful letter, it kept me occupied and kept me focused. Oh and the Pine Gap time when the Pine Gap cap was happening near Alice Springs. We used to, we had some busy times at that stage at Newbury courts, you know, like being hauled up in front of the magistrate. Well, I used to take advantage of that because in the middle of Newbury courts in those days, I don't know what it looks like today, they had a telephone box. So I just get in the telephone box and ring up, no expenses, um all these women in Pine Gap, the women that were in the Pine Gap office in Alice Springs. So one day I went, I went there and they'd obviously cottoned on to this so I arrived and there was a policeman and he was stationed inside the phone box so I couldn't ring Pine Gap anymore! So that was really good. Anyway with Coburn Sound when we got released me and my partner at the time Bridget we, Bridget Roberts for those who know her, um, we um - was exactly the same moment that women had arrived in a giant truck, Green.. some Greenham Women had arrived in a giant truck and had deposited right in the corner of Whitehall and Downing Street, half of the fence of, that was supposed to be surrounding Greenham Common. [[Wow. |fence whitehall wow]] [[What happened? So they just they just unloaded it there?|What happened? So they just they just unloaded it there?]]

Yeah. So yeah, that was a that was a good thing there. [[What happened? So they just they just unloaded it there?|What happened? So they just they just unloaded it there?]] [[Yeah. |fence not there yeah]]

I wasn't there. I was still in the nick at the time. But yeah, they just dumped, I don't know, it was a massive load. They dumped it on the on the traffic island, they didn't interrupt the traffic. I never got to see it, but I would have loved to have. [[Yeah. |fence not there yeah]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And so some women came from there to welcome us out of the Bow Street nick. But, you know, we were harassed and treated really badly while we were there. One thing I really loved doing was asking for a banana, you know, when you're locked up, asking for banana, and then I would make stick people out of strips of banana peel. And I'd sit there and play with them. Because I've got a theatre background, right, and so, like - I have a circus theatre background, so I would have great fun making up stories for these banana skin people. And the police thought I was nuts. I really enjoyed doing that, kept me occupied. Again in Paddington, and they just went totally bonkers. So yeah, so it was in 1983, soon after I arrived, that I started talking about the Pacific. [[Yeah. |pacific yeah]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|pacific yeah]]

And you know and women were getting involved with the Pine Gap thing and learning about Australia and all that sort of stuff. But in 1984 Bikini Day, the 1st of March, Bikini Atoll that the largest hydrogen bomb was detonated in, by the United States. We had a celebration for Nuclear Free and Independent Pacific day. So it happens every year 1st of March. And so it was at Green Gate. Women came from all the different gates. Women came who were not even living at camp, came from wherever they came from, scattered across the country. And we, we said that was the day that Women for Nuclear Free and Independent Pacific network was born. On the 1st of March 1984. And so we started, we made a another message wheel from the fence, and we took the message wheel and we, we had the message wheel there and women came and tied their beautiful pieces to it. And we also made a really long beautiful banner. And we had masks and we all painted the mask to represent our understanding of, of connectedness with women in the Pacific. And we sent those off to Hawaii. Now Hawaii he had a um, Hawaii had, was the office of the Nuclear Free and Independent Pacific movement which is, was an indigenous led, indigenous run, Pan Pacific - global in fact - network of people indigenous and non-indigenous who were working together to look after the Pacific and to get responsibility taken for the damage that was done and to stop more damage from being.. happening. So one of the things we learned that day was women in the Marshall Islands, who carry their babies for nine months, giving birth to babies that look like jellyfish. They breathe. They look like jellyfish, some of them are a bit hairy. They're different colours. And they just look like a jellyfish. And that's after a woman carrying a baby for nine months. There's a lot of that going on out in the Pacific today. [[Still now? |Still now? ]] [[Yeah.|Bikini day yeah]]

And people.. yeah.. And people do not know these stories. This is one of the stories I carried with me on the world bike ride. It was the story that resonated deepest in my heart. And so on this day, Bikini Day, that was one of the stories I told. It really hit into the core of women. Was one woman in particular who I remember, an American woman. And she really got so involved in the stories I was telling that she then went off and engaged with women in the Pacific by herself, and ended up with a beautiful book called Speaking Truth to Power. So she’s - which is an awesome book. And I'm proud of the fact that came out of that particular incident. [[Yeah.|Bikini day yeah]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

So what we did on that day was we decided what we wanted was to have Pacific women with us at Greenham. And there's so many Pacific, well, Indigenous Pacific women who came to Greenham. Aboriginal Australian, included who came to - we even had an Aboriginal flag raised, in raised at Green Gate by a beautiful, strong poet and storyteller, First Nations Australian, who, who just claimed the whole common on behalf of indigenous peoples of the world. You know, in a room, sort of like a re - the word that comes to mind is retaliation. But it wasn't a retaliation. But it definitely referenced England coming to First Nations continent of Australia, and raising the union jack and claiming everything that happened then and since. So, yeah, very proud of that point. Um, there was also, we also ran in 1985, a tour for one Maori woman and another Marianas woman, Chamorro woman from the Northern Marianas, across England, Scotland and Wales. So they started at Greenham and finished at Greenham. And when they were at Greenham they really, they told stories, they talked about what was happening. They had you know, every woman there was really paining like really feeling deep for what's going on in the Pacific, what has gone on in the Pacific. We travelled with a little cortina for six weeks all over England, Scotland, Wales, and we talked to every peace group we came to. And so we had set up the Women's International - oh sorry, wrong, not the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, although they did come into the story later. We set up the Women for a Nuclear Free and Independent Pacific - originally called Women Working for but somebody said, ‘Why did, why are we working for it?’ It's like, okay! Um, so and we sent the message wheel and the banner and the masks off to Hawaii. So, the next thing we find out is that Hawaii - that Britain is about to go and bomb Hawaii. That can't happen! Britain is about to target practice on the most sacred island of Kahoolawe in Hawaii. They're impact exercises, they are happening at the moment. Britain's out there, Australia's out there. Then they come into Australia and play silly buggers on the, on the Queensland coast. But there was about seven of us and we went to London and we stood, just seven of us with this sign that says, 'Stop England from Bombing Hawaii.’ And everybody come up and say, ‘What are you talking about? England is not going to bomb Hawaii!’ And I'd say, ‘Yeah, it is.’ And so we had an opportunity to tell those stories. And we also in that year, so the next year we had, 1986, we had two women from the Northern Marianas. They came and attended the London Dumping convention, on the banks of the Thames. Now we couldn't get inside. But we tried to get the, our two guests in. Friends of the Earth jumped at it. Friends of the Earth had built a.. under the elders, these two women's agreement, they made a, turned a whole barge into a Pacific island with a woman and baby at the top and towed it up and down the Thames River outside, and everybody in the London Dumping convention could not mistake that. But neither could they miss the fact that on the other side of the road, there was a whole vigil that went on for the entire time the London Dumping convention was on day and night. And it wasn't people that were on the other side, we had octopus and sharks and whales and kelp. One woman turned up dressed as a kelp with a sign that said, ‘Peaceful Kelp Front’, um, you know, so we had a ball. I mean, basically everything we did was having a ball. [[You travelled a lot!|Bikini day yeah 2]] [[You went all over!|Bikini day yeah 2]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, we spent a year travelling and we ended up at the Women's Camp against Pine Gap, which I mentioned before, in Canberra. And I did a lot of workshops there on what was going on in the Pacific. And then the next year 1987 - and we had a woman from Belau. and another woman from the Marshall Islands come and join us. And I mean, Greenham Women had already heard about the jellyfish babies. Um, but they both came and the thing about Belau - or otherwise known as Palau, just south east of the Philippines - created the world's first nuclear free constitution. Now we were all, great, you know, a lot of noise was made about New Zealand having a nuclear free port, which is indeed a great thing and something that Australia has never done. But here we had a whole nation of women elders who had stood up to their men and had said, ‘We want to not have the same history as the Marshall Islands. We don't want nuclear here. We don't want nuclear accidents.’ Unfortunately, the United States forced them in a strange concept of democracy for 111, I'm sorry, I'm exaggerating... 111.. 11 votes over 15 years to uphold the small clause inside that they had - the women elders had - put inside the Constitution, just a one small couple of sentences. It took 11 votes. And it involved bombing places, killing people. You know, people were being murdered. Men were being paid to go and bomb houses. There was so much violence that had never been seen in Belau. All of the nations to the north of the equator are matrilineal nations but Belau has always maintained a really strong, matrilineal nation as they still do today. But the government of the United States forced much devastation on top of the Belauan people. And I've already told you about the Marshall Islands and nuclear testing in the Marshalls so.. [[So you then spent a lot of time petitioning did you to stop that?|So you then spent a lot of time petitioning did you to stop that?]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

A lot of people have, for a long time. So these erm.. we went around again, we went around England, Scotland and Wales to to talk about what was going on in the Pacific. I later went over to Ireland - I'm Irish Australian so it was a good opportunity to go over to Ireland and talk about what was going on when I was over there. And then in 1988, we had the Australian Bicentenary. And the Australian Bicentenary, there was an Aboriginal support group in London, set up by a woman called Robin. And she and I were in cahoots. And she was part of the Women for a Nuclear free and Independent Pacific network as well. So the Bicentenary was the celebration of 200 years of English rule in this conti-nent of many countries, of many First Nation countries. And so I decided that I should stay in England, and assist with actually making a lot of noise around that. So um, at the end of 1988 I received a phone call from my family telling me to get on the next plane because my Mum was dying. And I left Greenham. What came out of that whole experience for me was my book, Daughters of the Pacific. [[Yeah. |book yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|book yeah]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Which has got all those stories. Not all the stories, but the nations I've been to. Then I've written Holding Yawulyu: White Culture and Black Women’s Law. So what I've been studying ever since I got on a bicycle was white culture and its impact on indigenous peoples. So that's my Greenham story. And where I've gone from there, in 1997 I joined the New Zealand peace Flotilla, and went to Moruroa as the only Australian to actually leave Australia and get into the New Zealand Peace Flotilla. There was some, there was some Australians on the Rainbow Warrior, Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior. But other than that, obviously, I'm the only Australian to actually get out there. I had to jump on a boat out of Auckland, out of New Zealand. And then I came back and one day, a friend of mine made a phone call to me and said, I've got 16 women elders here from the desert, come out and come and have a cup of tea. So I grabbed my bag, went for a cup of tea, met these amazing women from the desert. Haven’t - didn’t see my home for another three months because the women asked me to take them home to the desert, I accompanied them home to the desert. I was invited to stay there for a month. And at the end of the month, they said you can go now but you've got to come back. So they wanted me back. And I've just spent the past 20 years from 1999 to 2019 living in the de-sert with the women elders, living their way in the desert. So it's been awesome and it all came out of Greenham, none of that would have been possible without Greenham. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Have fun. There is a, um, you know, one of the things I love most about Greenham, you didn't have to be any way, you could be any way you were and it was okay. Yeah, kinda like as long as you didn't give somebody else a hard time, it was okay. And yeah there were times um - one of the things I loved about Greenham was the fact that I like to live in places where I know that just by breathing, I'm changing the world. That's been Greenham for me. I just had to be there and breathe like, didn't have to do anything else. I mean, other things were done, but just being there - that’s what it's been like for me out in the desert for the last 20 years. Just being there and just breathing. Yeah, there was a lot of work to go with it, I was looking after some seniors. In one year I looked after three women who were said by the local clinic to be aged over 100. Now these are all women who, who had first contact when they were already women. One of the women elders, one of the only, the only remaining of the first original 16 women, had first contact when she had just given birth to her first child in 1967. That was yesterday. And, amazing women. I've been so blessed in my life and getting on the bicycle and riding to Greenham was definitely one of the best things I've ever done in my entire life. Because I found myself, I found myself as a person, I found myself as a lesbian. I found myself as a woman with other women. And yeah, I mean I had a good life before that, I - when I was 21, I built a horse drawn gypsy waggon filled it full of puppets and travelled around in a circus.. my ancestors, Ishtar Peddlers Touring Children Circus, which is where my last name comes from. So you know, like, but yeah, there were time, there were times that drove people nuts. Sometimes, it drove me nuts. There were hard times. [[Was it important that the camp was women only?|Was it important that the camp was women only?]] [[How did it work with the collective decision making of the camp?|Yeah. So you said like, you know, you didn't always necessarily agree but you re-spected each other. How did it work with the collective decision making of the camp? You know, there was apparently no hierarchy - how did that work?]]

It would not have survived if it had been men.. had men there. And there really needs to be places for women to get together as women, as women, like women. I'm talking about women here. It's an entirely, women are an entirely different group of people. And when we get together as women, there's just so much learning and giving and strengthening and, and sharing and crying and having hard times you know, but being together. We don't always agree with each other. This is the brilliance of having 13 you know, or sometimes, you know, four camps around the base, you could just pick up your bender and go for a walk. Well, you didn't pick up your bender, you left it there. I was very lucky to inherit a whole beautiful bender that had already been built in the original style, you know, the bent saplings, and then, then the blankets thrown on top and then the plastic on top of that. I mean, it doesn't take much to build a home. But I'd learned that on the bike ride because every bush became your home if you stayed at it long enough. [[How did it work with the collective decision making of the camp?|Yeah. So you said like, you know, you didn't always necessarily agree but you re-spected each other. How did it work with the collective decision making of the camp? You know, there was apparently no hierarchy - how did that work?]] [[why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?|why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?]]

Um, some people did think there was a hierarchy and they thought they were on top of it. Um, so, you know, like, we used to have some entanglements. I mean, let's face it, Greenham got so many donations, there was money coming into Greenham from all over the world. And some of it was well spent, unfortunately, some of it wasn't. We had processes by which the money camp bit could happen. But it was always the same people. And we also had at that stage, we also had an office in London and you know, they'd turn up on a regular basis to claim some money because they were busy living in London. It's like well, come back to the camp. Anyway, the money meeting used to happen at every, used to happen always at one particular gate. And and I thought about that and then I thought, hold on. Let's shift it around to different gates every time to find out how that, if we can actually bust this, this give me sort of attitude and yeah. I took it to Green Gate. We had the camp.. the money meeting at Green Gate. And then we moved it on to Turqouise. And then on to well, round the circle. I think there was a Jade Gate in there at some stage. And we moved in around to Blue and then went on to all the other colours and ended up back at Green where the circle started. [[Do you know anything about Woad Gate? |Do you know anything about Woad Gate? ]] [[why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?|why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?]]

That's the one I'm after, Woad. [[So Woad and Turquoise weren't the same gates?|So Woad and Turquoise weren't the same gates?]] [[Okay, and then there was Emerald Watch?|Okay, and then there was Emerald Watch?]]

No. Some of them weren't gates. Some of them were, um, what do you call it, fence. [[Right.|Gates right]] [[Okay, and then there was Emerald Watch?|Okay, and then there was Emerald Watch?]]

Yeah, Emerald was on the Gate. [[Yeah..|emerald yeah]] [[Right.|Gates right]]

Yeah, I went back for the 10th birthday in ’91. [[What was it like then going back?|What was it like then going back?]] [[why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?|why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?]]

But it was where you could see what all the squaddies were doing on that on the airstrip. [[Right.|Gates right]] [[why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?|why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?]]

Oh, my body knew exactly where it is. There's very few places on this planet that I feel totally at home. The common is one of them. My body knows every foot every, every inch of that ground, around Green Gate. And right around, you know, to a lesser degree, the whole base. It got to the stage, as I was seeing memories as I just walking anywhere, they'd be memories jumping at me from all over the place. And it was like, hey, hold on a minute, you lot just slow down. I'm here to make new memories. So that was good. That's really good. [[why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?|why do you think it is so important that these memories are preserved? Like, for future generations?]]

I think women need to know - like, those of us who lived there couldn't imagine wanting to live any other way. And praying, you know, it could keep going forever. It doesn't make sense that it's not happening. Doesn't make sense that opportunity isn't available for the young women these days. So they can find themselves. It was such a priceless thing and all it took was a bunch of women to walk from Cardiff and sit down and say we're not leaving. So all it takes is one woman to go and do it. So why haven't I done it? I'm not sure yet. And I'm not sure that I won't do it. [[Yeah. |not sure i wont do it yeah]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Because it's some it's an understanding of self there's a groundedness.. comes with grounded.. it’s really important that we were on a common. I was asked recently if I would like to participate in a women's camp at Parliament House in Canberra. Ah, you know like where all the Polly's hanging out. It's like no. It's a different place altogether. Yeah, there are camps happening. There, okay we've got a massive protests going on with trying to stop coal mines in Australia. [[Oh right. |australia Oh right. ]] [[Yeah? |australia yeah]]

Cos you know like Australia is one of the world's largest exporters of coal. [[Yeah. |australia yeah]] [[No, I didn't know that..|australia yeah]]

Hello! Ah, you know, like we've got a climate catastrophe that's descending on us even as we speak. But yeah. It’s, there's a power that comes into you, what I felt was a power that came into me that was more than me, but was but at the same time total to me. It was.. me.. the size of me and yet it was as expansive as the universe. And there was a power to just weave the future. And we all could feel that. We all wanted it. And yeah, it wasn't always easy. But as I said, you just roll up your swag and move on to the next camp. Yeah, I lived at Orange. I lived at Red. I lived at Blue. Yeah, the zap. Yeah. Because that zap, that was scary business. But the person who knows most about it, and is still alive to tell the story - because the person who knew most about it isn't alive anymore. But she worked really closely with the woman who was from the Navy, who is an electronic expert in the Navy. Greenham Common woman. Yeah, you know, like she had, she had her life threatened so many times. And I remember going to the car once and there was a gunshot, in her, what do you call it, driving, front window, screen - yeah, that can only have been made by a gun. And I was busy with the Pacific - I was feeling the zap. But I was busy with the Pacific. But even just yesterday, I saw a comment on television and about invisible weapons. [[The Zap?|Yeah. Listeners, would you just explain what the zap was?]] [[Right?|Zap right]]

Okay, the zap, um, I can't remember what year it happened. Um, but it was a beam. And the beam went from just below your knees to just above your head. And the first thing, it’s electronic weapons. And the first thing that it creates, creates is panic, absolute panic. But if you can pull yourself together enough to drop to the ground, get underneath the beam, lay there long enough to recover, and then crawl your way out far enough so that you think you might be out of the beam. Um, so yeah, they used to talk about, you know, we just cut the fence. You know, the whole thing was to prove to the military that that didn't matter what they did. You know, we could get in, we're just normal human beings, you know, not specially trained. What did they think the opposition was going to do? You know, like, that was the same with, with Cruise Watch. If we knew where the cruise missiles were, what made them think the Russians didn't? This is right in the Cold War - right. It's like, hello! Um, so that was the whole point of getting in and out of the base. But the the thing about the zap is because the fence didn't keep us out, they decided to use the zap - the electronic weapons which they have been developing since the 1950s. And they used the zap that when they first started at Greenham, they didn't know how to aim it. And you had squaddies inside the base, soldiers inside the base screaming their heads off and going absolutely nuts and yelling, ‘Get me out of here! Get me out of here!' You know, all soldiers running up and down the watchtower. There was a massively high watchtower on um, inside the base, and you know, they'd run up and down with machine guns and squaddies that were pointing machine guns at each other and you know. They went berserk for about a week before they actually started to rein that in. But, you know, it impacted.. it works with the brainwaves. So if it fits inside your brainwave in a way that doesn't do damage then it doesn’t - you don't notice it. You don't feel it. You're not affected by it perhaps. Like my partner at the time Bridget she wasn't affected by it. But I was. It would totally space me out. One time I remember shutting my eyes and thinking the end of the world had arrived because it was just inside my head there was there was just doom and gloom and explosions going on all over the place. I shut my eyes again, and that wasn't there. So, you know, like these weapons - that was in the 80s. These weapons have got another, what, 30 years on top of that, you know, like, you know, those things they stick into, into your power point, so you can kill mosquitoes or keep flies out of your house - that’s the same stuff. So they want to - when we had the women's peace camp in Parliament House in Canberra against Pine Gap, um, we went over to protest at the defence building, um, you know, I could feel it there immediately. But they used to call it the super fence, we're going to bring the super fence in. And we presume, that's what they meant by the super fence was this, these electronic weapons and to hear just yesterday, somebody still mentioning invisible weapons. They're obviously not, you know, it, see, it could stop a raging bull. This is a study they did in the 60s, late 60s, early 70s. They would stop a raging bull in full charge, just by switching a button. They can actually narrow it up the beam onto one person, or like and actually spread across a whole area. And we had the world, one of the world's foremost experts in radiation, who was a, a scientific nun, as it turned out. Um, and she came to Greenham and proved to us that we were being cooked, as she used the word - mainly around Green Gate because Green Gate was closest to the silos. Yeah, it really damaged - there was two women who froze in two different sides of Green Gate at exactly the same time and could not move. So she was one of them, and there was another woman, and afterwards they got up and they exchanged notes and discovered that it happened at exactly the same time. [[Yeah. |zap more Yeah. ]] [[Yeah?|zap more Yeah. ]]

Well, that's what we're talking about. [[The Zap?|Yeah. Listeners, would you just explain what the zap was?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Yeah. Listeners, would you just explain what the zap was?]]

It impacted the rest of us and all. But while I'm busy talking about the silos let you, let me tell you that when I went back for the 10th birthday, I organised that we were all going to go on top of the silos again to repeat what had happened on the first birthday. When the women got on top the silos, the ones that had inspired me so much to actually get, get on a bike - I was already getting on a bicycle but definitely to go to Greenham. That's where I was heading. So I didn't know that until the day before I left Australia to set out around the world. I knew that I was heading for Greenham. And so I went back to the 10th birthday and I'm hoping that next year Coronavirus allowing we'll actually have the 40th birthday. I think what people need to know about the zap, um, you know, in today's world, I don't know how to get it out there. I'm not the person to tell the story. Yeah, I actually went dyslexic for - not dyslexic, um, - for a whole year, I couldn't speak for a year. [[Really? |Really? ]] [[And did it gradually get better? Or was it sudden?|And did it gradually get better? Or was it a sudden]]

Um, yeah. I, I would come out with words, but it was my partner Bridget who had to actually translate everything I wanted to say. [[So it was all like symbols?|So it was all like symbols?]] [[And did it gradually get better? Or was it sudden?|And did it gradually get better? Or was it a sudden]]

Gradually got better. I'm still get dyslexic with numbers sometimes. But I was actually, I was able to, well, I wasn't writing in those days. But I was able to write things but I wasn't able to speak things. I could speak words, they just didn't make any sense. There was a lot of Australian and New Zealanders over there. [[Yeah.| Australians yeah]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Zohl de Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, I couldn't string words together to make a sentence. So yeah, lasted for a year. [[And did it gradually get better? Or was it sudden?|And did it gradually get better? Or was it a sudden]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Zohl de Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Back to you know - So yeah, the old joke - why does Green Gate have deep shit pits? [[I don't know. |I don't know. ]] [[I don't know, why does Green Gate have deep shit pits?|I don't know. ]]

There's a lot of Aussies there and they're trying to get home. You know, if you're in England and you dig a hole you end up in Australia. [[Yes. |Yes. ]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

But if you're in Australia and you dig a hole through the earth you end up in China. [[Yes. |china Yes. ]] [[In China?|china Yes. ]]

It must be a take on the gold fields when the Chinese were working the gold fields. Must have dug really deep holes. One of the things I want to make really clear is Greenham was never about nuclear weapons only. It was about nuclear weapons. But it was about everything else. And there were so many of us Greenham Women making connections all around the world on all kinds of different levels, including race. So when people say Greenham was a bunch of white middle class racist women, that's not what happened. I'm not middle class to start off I'm actually Irish working class with a long history of colonisation behind me which has informed all of my work. I know what racism is when I see it. And yeah. My story gives - the story of the Pacific at Greenham was massive, and gives a lot of example that Greenham was never one sided. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Zohl dé Ishtar, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/carole_stuart_mcivor.jpg" width="400" height="400" alt="Photograph of Carole Stuart McIvor sitting, surrounded by police. Image from GWE archive, treatment by LH Trevail."> Carole Stuart McIvor (Previously Carole Harwood) first went to Greenham in protest against at the rainbow bomb in 1961/62 after coming out of care at the age of 16. She got arrested and spent a week in Holloway Prison alongside Helen Allegranza and Pat Arrowsmith. Years later, she returned on Christmas Eve, 1982, and talks about the guilt she felt for leaving her kids and mum. She recalls breaking into the base and dancing on the silos on New Year's Day, the incredible barrister Liz Woodcraft representing them in court, hitting her head in the riot van and getting concussed and her second stint in Holloway Prison. Carole also talks about going to a summit in Geneva with Welsh women to protest and give talks. They were deported after covering a public clock with the alternative time of ‘5 minutes to Midnight’, graffiti-ing over a picture of naked woman on the wall of the police station, and being choked by a police officer when caught. She feels it is important for Greenham to be remembered, as you can re-direct the traffic literally and metaphorically if you know people have done it before. Carole had a poem published in No Holds Barred, a collection of poems by women, chosen by The Raving Beauties. Carole was interviewed by Vanessa Pini in April 2021. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/treated_logo.png" width="600" height="400" alt="Illustration of a line of seven Greenham Women, arms around eachother, by Jacky Fleming, treatment by LH Trevail."> //“Peace Woman refuses to pay fine, birthday in custody. Southampton Peace Woman, spent her 21st birthday in police custody at the start of a 7 day prison sentence for refusing to pay fines imposed after she took part in a blockade at Greenham Common.”// Carolyn Barnes shares the story behind the newspaper headline in the Southampton Daily Echo. She became involved with Greenham after moving from Bolton to attend Southampton University. She joined various groups including CND, 3rd World First and a local group “Families Against the Bomb”. Her friend, Di, used to take a group of them to Greenham for demonstrations in her campervan. Carolyn talks about being new to politics when first staying at Blue Gate, the cruise missiles being brought in, the excitement of a women-only space, treatment by the police, prison, poetry and impact on her family. She also recalls people not expecting women to stick up for each other and the different ways in which women reacted to the balance of power. Carolyn describes Greenham as earthy, real, natural and primal. Carolyn was interviewed by Tricia Grace-Norton in February 2021. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/treated_logo.png" width="600" height="400" alt="Illustration of a line of seven Greenham Women, arms around eachother, by Jacky Fleming, treatment by LH Trevail."> Veteran campaigner Di Macdonald was at Greenham from the early days and then went on to be a crucial  link to Cruise watch in the South East and an inspiration to many of us. Her van was an iconic part of the chase around the countryside after cruise missiles on the move. Di continues to campaign against nuclear weapons to this day as part of Cruise Watch and Aldermaston Women’s Peace Camp. Di was interviewed by Emma Gliddon on 17th March 2021. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/pixie_taylor.jpg" width="400" height="400" alt="Photograph of Pixie Taylor, in her bender at Bloo Gate in 1993, half-smiling, looking into the camera lens. Image from GWE archive, treatment by LH Trevail."> Pixie spent two periods of her life at Greenham. Firstly, when she was 18, she went down on an overnight coach from Dundee and lived at Green Gate from 1985-86. She returned for the 10th birthday in 1991 and lived at Bloo Gate until January 1994. She talks about the differences in the eras, evictions and bailiffs, women only spaces, learning to value her body and her time in Holloway. She recalls doing doughnuts in a borrowed car in the base during the American leaving ceremony and reads from a Greenham newsletter documenting leaving Bloo Gate. Pixie speaks about how ludicrous it was to have nuclear weapons being driven around the country and how Greenham wouldn’t have survived without humour and laughter. She also remembers writing to Greenham at school on Dennis the Menace paper and getting a reply! Pixie was interviewed by Vanessa Pini in January 2021. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/sian_jones.jpg" width="400" height="400" alt="Photograph of Sian Jones, wearing a cap, with the Greenham fence behind her. Image from GWE archive, treatment by LH Trevail."> Sian was living in Southampton when GCWPC began. Orange gate, on the south side of the common, was the nearest for Southampton activists who were regulars at camp and beyond. Sian's initial involvement included night watch, hot food runs and cruise watch. She enjoyed being on the land with women and the elements and even went to sea with the women's boat action group. She also talks about how the network of Greenham Women grew over the years and the development of other anti-war and international groups like WATFY (Women's Aid To Former Yugoslavia) and Women in Black. Sian was interviewed by Jill Raymond (Ray) in February 2021. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/zohl_de_ishtar.jpg" width="400" height="400" alt="Photograph of Zohl de Ishtar, wearing a wide-brimmed hat, and smiling. Image from GWE archive, treatment by LH Trevail."> Irish-Australian Lesbian, Zohl dé Ishtar has worked with Indigenous Australian and Pacific women for 40 years. While at Greenham, she initiated Britain’s “Women for a Nuclear Free and Independent Pacific”. Zohl arrived at Greenham on her 30th birthday in 1982 and describes Green Gate as, “The best place in the world.” She talks about the camp being infiltrated by police officers and the media, links with other peace camps around the world, including Pine Gap in Australia and getting arrested at Heathrow airport for forming a blockade and singing Greenham songs. She also recalls ‘the zap’ and the affects it had. Zohl has written several books and is currently working on a new book with the working title, "Greenham’s Pacific Journey". Zohl was interviewed by Vanessa Pini in September 2020. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

''"Shall There be Womanly Times" written by Frankie Armstrong, adapted and performed by Chloë Clarke.'' ADAPTED LYRICS They fear the dove, they clip her wings Shall there be womanly times or shall we die? But still she flies and still she sings There will be womanly times, we will not die. The missiles wait in concrete tombs Born of the head and not the womb There will be womanly times, we will not die. Listen, hear the mothers cry What gift is life if the earth must die There will be womanly times, we will not die. The greatest gift to give each child Is science and nature reconciled There will be womanly times, we will not die. The sun has ruled the age of man Now moon take up your place again So raise the question, let it ring Shall there be womanly times or shall we die? Here’s the answer, join and sing There will be womanly times, we will not die. There will be womanly times, we will not die. There will be womanly times, we will not die. ORIGINAL LYRICS They fear the dove, they clip her wings Shall there be womanly times or shall we die? But still she flies and still she sings There will be womanly times, we will not die. Missiles sleep in concrete tombs Shall there be womanly times or shall we die? Born of the head and not the womb There will be womanly times, we will not die. The greatest gift to give each child Shall there be womanly times or shall we die? Is science and nature reconciled There will be womanly times, we will not die. Make a circle round this land Shall there be womanly times or shall we die? Join heart and heart and hand in hand There will be womanly times, we will not die. Listen, hear the women cry Shall there be womanly times or shall we die? What good is life if the earth must die There will be womanly times, we will not die. The sun has ruled the age of men Shall there be womanly times or shall we die? Now moon take up your place again There will be womanly times, we will not die. Raise the question, let it ring Shall there be womanly times or shall we die? Here’s the answer, join and sing There will be womanly times, we shall not die. [[Sing another song.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/Shall_There_be_Womanly_Times_Chloe_Clarke.mp3" autoplay>

''"Which Side Are you On?" original melody by Florence Reece, lyrics adapted by Greenham Women, performed by Jenny and Flo Crowe.'' Which side are you on, which side are you on, Are you on the other side from us, Which side are you on? Are you on the side of suicide, Are you on the side of homicide, Are you on the side of genocide, Which side are you on, I ask you, Are you on the side that’s not for life, Are you on the side of racial strife, Are you on the side that beats his wife, Which side are you on, I ask you, Are you on the side that locks the door, Are you on the side that hates the poor, Are you on the side that loves the war, Which side are you on, I ask you, Are you on the side that likes to hunt, Are you on the side of the National Front, Are you on the side that calls us c*nts, Which side are you on, I ask you, Are you on the side that wants to live, Are you on the side that’s creative, Are you on the side that’s positive, Which side are you on? [[Sing another song.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/Which_Side_Are_You_On_Jenny_Flo_Crowe.mp3" autoplay>

''"The Opposition", written by Margot Random, performed by Deborah Tracey.'' The woman in the street knows what’s going on, The woman on the street’s got her wits about her. Pitch her tent on a burial ground, Nobody’s gonna take her alive. Not while she’s got air to breathe, Not while she’s got a voice to protest, And the baby knows what the mama knows also, The baby ain’t gonna lay down and die. Are you, are you, are you, are you, One of the opposition? The woman on the street’s got her head screwed on, The woman on the street says why should I suffer? Makes a stand on a burial ground, Makes a louder voice without numbers. Sing women, sing women all over the world, Sing stand up, stand up and say no, Sing women, sing women all over the world, Sing stand up, stand up and say no. Are you, are you, are you, are you, One of the opposition? [[Sing another song.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/The_Opposition_Deb_Tracey_Greenham_Option_1.mp3" autoplay>

''"We Are a Gentle Angry Women" written by Holly Near, adapted and performed by Carleen Anderson.'' ADAPTED LYRICS We are a gentle angry women And we are singing, singing for our lives, We are a gentle angry women And we are singing, singing for our lives. We stand for women of all nations And we are standing, standing for our lives, We stand for women of all nations And we are standing, standing for our lives, We are the dreamers of new visions And we are dreaming, dreaming for our lives, We are the dreamers of new visions And we are dreaming, dreaming for our lives. We are the ones who cares for our children And we are caring, caring for their lives, We are the ones who cares for our children And we are caring, caring for their lives. We are a gentle angry women And we are singing, singing for our lives. ORIGINAL LYRICS We are a gentle angry women And we are singing, singing for our lives, We are a gentle angry women And we are singing, singing for our lives. We are the dreamers of new visions And we are dreaming, dreaming for our lives, We are the dreamers of new visions And we are dreaming, dreaming for our lives. We are the ones who care for children And we are caring, caring for their lives, We are the ones who care for children And if you listen, we can save their lives. [[Sing another song.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/Carleen-Anderson-We-Are-Gentle-Angry-Women.mp3" autoplay>

''"Tomorrow" written by Peggy Seeger, performed by Alice Robinson.'' I know where my pleasures lie, for pleasures I have many, Hopes and dreams that carry me through daily care and worry; But every pleasure's touched with grief, every hope blighted with sorrow, Nightmare overtakes the dream—I fear I've lost tomorrow. There it is, deep in my mind when I wake in the morning— I'm waiting, trembling, listening for the dread Four-Minute Warning. When I watch the children play and only see annihilation, Then I know fear has now become a normal part of living. Nature trains us to survive, protect our children's children; We break the first of human laws preparing now to kill them. Peace is what they say we have—it feels more like a poisoned arrow Pointing at our deepest dream—the promise of tomorrow. You know where your pleasures lie. Will you have time to use them? Hopes and dreams are empty joys if we're prepared to lose them. You who stand and shake your head and judge us that we act in error, Ask yourself, deep in your heart: Do you, too, live in terror? My spirit's dying day by day, murdered by warmongers; That is why I'm here, for I can't bear it any longer. I'm not here to waste my time, I'm not here to beg or borrow, I'm here to demand what's mine, I've come to claim tomorrow. [[Sing another song.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/Tomorrow-by-Peggy-Seeger-recorded-by-Alice-Robinson-with-Peggy-Quote.mp3" autoplay>

''"Carry Greenham Home", written and performed by Peggy Seeger.'' Hand in hand the line extends All around the nine-mile fence Thirty thousand women chant Bring the message home Chorus: Carry Greenham home Yes, nearer home and far away Carry Greenham home. Singing voices rising higher Weave a dove into the wire In our hearts a blazing fire Bring the message home Chorus: Carry Greenham home Yes, nearer home and far away Carry Greenham home. No-one asked us if we cared If cruise should be stationed here Now we've got them running scared Bring the message home. Chorus: Carry Greenham home Yes, nearer home and far away Carry Greenham home. Here we sit, here we stand Here we claim the common land Nuclear arms shall not command Bring the message home. Chorus: Carry Greenham home Yes, nearer home and far away Carry Greenham home. Singing voices sing again To the children, to the men From the channel to the glens Bring the message home Chorus: Carry Greenham home Yes, nearer home and far away Carry Greenham home. Not the nightmare, not the scream Just the loving human dream Of peace, the ever-flowing stream Bring the message home Chorus: Carry Greenham home Yes, nearer home and far away Carry Greenham home. Woman tiger, woman dove Help to save the world we love Velvet fist in iron glove Bring the message home Chorus: Carry Greenham home Yes, nearer home and far away Carry Greenham home. [[Sing another song.|Big Fire 3 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/Peggy-Seeger-Live-Carry-Greenham-Home.mp3" autoplay>