A Greenham Campfire 2

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/the_gates.JPG" width="400" height="400" alt="Black and white illustration of two coiled dragons, a flower, and a rainbow, titled The Gates by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> =><= ''In the distance, you see the glow of a campfire. Smoke rising. Figures gathered. You begin to walk closer.'' -----HOW TO PLAY----- <= 1. This is a text-based conversational game. Controls are simple. Scroll down to read the text. When you are offered a choice, which will be in different-coloured text, simply click on the action you would like to take. 2. When a conversation has come to a natural end point, you will be invited to speak with others around the fire, or sometimes to continue the conversation further. If you do not want to initiate another conversation at that time, you can say goodbye and leave from the campfire. No individual conversation is very long, and you can have as many conversations as you like. 3. CONTENT WARNING - Some of the themes discussed may be sensitive or triggering. Your emotional response is respected. It is fine to leave at any time. 4. You can exit the game quickly at any point, by simply closing your browser or tab. =><= --- <= All responses are the unedited, verbatim words of Greenham Women, from interviews conducted as part of the project "Greenham Women Everywhere". You can find out more about this from the link below, or when you leave if you don't like spoilers. Whether you know who the Greenham Women are as you approach, or whether they are strangers to you, you are welcome at the warmth of the fire. These are real conversations. There is no save or return, there is no "back", there is no index. This is now. =><= ---- <= ''A little way ahead, you can see the campfire. Closer now.'' [[Take a seat around the campfire.|Campfire]] [[Find out more about the Greenham Women.|Find out more about Greenham Women.]] [[Leave.|Credits]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/campfire_image_kayleigh_hilsdon_inverted.jpg" width="480" height="480" alt="Black and white illustration of a Campfire with moon, sun, smoke and a raining cloud, titled Legacy by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> =><= ''You are sitting at a campfire, with seven Greenham Women.'' ------/XX\------ In the drifting smoke and low fireside flicker, you cannot clearly make them out. Speak with them, and you will see them clearer through their words. ------/XX\------ Who would you like to speak with? [[Lyn Barlow]] [[Jade Britton]] [[Sally Hay]] [[Maggie Parks]] [[Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil]] [[Lorna Richardson]] ------/XX\------ [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Find out more about the Greenham Women you are speaking with.|Find out more about Greenham Women.]] [[Say goodbye, and leave the campfire.|Credits]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/women_only_space.jpg" width="400" height="400" alt="Black and white illustration of a wreath of sinuous branches, strung with fine, strong cobwebs, titled Women Only Space by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> Forty years ago, women around the UK descended on Berkshire in beautiful indignation, beginning an extensive campaign of non-violent actions against nuclear weapons being stored on Greenham Common. They created an exclusively female space - Greenham Women's Peace Camp - and thrived together, pushing those watching to question war, sexual orientation, and gender roles. Their stories inspired tens of thousands of women around the world - Let their stories inspire you. All responses are the unedited, verbatim words of Greenham Women, from interviews conducted as part of the project "Greenham Women Everywhere". Find out more about the women you are speaking with around this campfire: [[Lyn Barlow|Lyn Barlow Info]] [[Jade Britton|Jade Britton Info]] [[Sally Hay|Sally Hay Info]] [[Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil|Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil Info]] [[Maggie Parks|Maggie Parks Info]] [[Lorna Richardson|Lorna Richardson Info]] Now.. [[Take a seat around the campfire|Campfire]] [[Return to the introduction|Welcome]] [[Leave the campfire, and view the credits|Credits]] Leave the campfire, and visit the Greenham Women Everwhere Website: <a href="http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/">http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/</a>

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/motherhood.JPG" width="400" height="400" alt="Black and white illustration of an anatomical heart, wreathed in dandelion heads, some seeds blowing away, titled Motherhood by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> ''You walk away from the campfire, and you are welcome to return.'' All responses are the unedited words of Greenham Women Lyn Barlow, Jade Britton, Sally Hay, Margaret McNeil,Maggie Parks, Lorna Richardson and Annei Soanes. Interviews were conducted by Jessica Layton, Isabelle Tracy, Sara Sherwood, Tricia Norton, Rebecca Mordan and Josephine Liptrott. The Greenham Campfire project was conceived, designed and created by L H Trevail. =><= ------/XX\------ [[Return, and take your seat at the Campfire|Campfire]] ------/XX\------ <= Illustrations: “Legacy” "Motherhood", "NVDA", "The Gates" and "Women Only Space", by Kayleigh Hilsdon. "Greenham Women" by Jacky Fleming. Portraits of Greenham Women by Christine Bradshaw, with treatment by LHTrevail. Songs: "Like a Mountain / Can't Kill The Spirit" by Naomi Littlebear, covered by Christina Li. "We Work For The Russians", covered by Rebecca Mordan on vocals and Caroline Parker on BSL. "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes", sung by Lorna Richardson and Rebecca Mordan, in interview. "Carry Greenham Home" by Peggy Seeger. "Oh Holloway", to the tune of "Danny Boy", Lyrics from the Greenham Songbook. "Frere Jaques" Alternate Version, Lyrics remembered by Margaret McNeil. =><= ------/XX\------ [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] ------/XX\------ <= Web Support: Scary Little Girls - Ampersand Industries Greenham Women Everywhere - JKC Marketing Accessibility Consultant: Chloë Clarke Scary Little Girls Support: Vanessa Pini Becky Barry Christina Li Becky John at 92 Minutes Further Reading: Other Girls Like Me by Stephanie Davies Greenham Voices: An Anecdotal History of Greenham Common Women’s Peace Camp by Kate Kerrow and Rebecca Mordan Walking to Greenham by Ann Pettitt Greenham Common: Women at the Wire by Barbara Harford and Sarah Hopkins Orange Gate Journal by Ginette Leach =><= ------/XX\------ [[Find out more about the Greenham Women around this Campfire.|Find out more about Greenham Women.]] ------/XX\------ <= Commissioned by Scary Little Girls, for Greenham Women Everywhere. Greenham Women Everywhere is funded by Heritage Lottery South West. Read full interviews and others, and find out more about the women you have been speaking with, here: <a href="http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/oral-testimonies/">http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/oral-testimonies/</a>. Greenham Women Everwhere Site: <a href="http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/">http://greenhamwomeneverywhere.co.uk/</a> Scary Litte Girls Site: <a href="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/">https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/</a> =><= ------/XX\------ <= <img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/slg-logo2-300x181.png" width="300" height="181" alt="Scary Little Girls Logo, white on black: The words Scary Little Girls in an elegant font."> <img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/HeritageFundEnglish_logo_white.png" width="400" height="200" alt="Heritage Fund Logo, white on black - the words Heritage Fund, and an image of a hand with its fingers crossed for luck."> <img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/ACEgrand_jpeg_white.jpg" width="600" height="200" alt="Arts Council England Logo, white on black - the words Supported Using Public Funding Arts Council by England, with Arts Council England in a little circle to the left hand side. "> <img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/thumbnail_greenham_boltCutter.png" width="300" height="300" alt="Greenham Women Everywhere Logo, white on green. A green circle with the words Greenham Women Everywhere in bold white capital letters. In the centre of the circle, in white cut-out, a Greenham Woman with bolt cutters, looking over her shoulder, and looking mighty cool.">

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/nvda.JPG" width="400" height="400" alt="Black and white illustration of a wreath of flowers and bolt cutters, titled NVDA by Kayleigh Hilsdon"> =><= ''Which song shall we sing?'' ------/XX\------ <= [["Like a Mountain / Can't Kill The Spirit" by Naomi Littlebear, covered by Christina Li.]] [[“We Work For The Russians by the women of Greenham Peace Camp, covered by Claire Ingleheart.]] [["Smoke Gets In Your Eyes", sung by Jane Griffiths, Judy Harris and Isabella Tracy in interview.]] [["Oh Holloway", to the tune of "Danny Boy", Lyrics Only.]] [["Frere Jaques" Alternate Version, Lyrics Only.]] [["Carry Greenham Home" by Peggy Seeger.]] =><= ------/XX\------ [[Speak with another woman around the campfire.|Campfire]] [[Leave the campfire, and view the credits.|Credits]]

''"We are the Witches" from the Greenham Songbook, performed by Carolyn Francis.'' We are the witches who will never be burned, We are the witches who have learned what it is to be free. We will rise up from the flames, Higher, higher and higher! Fires strength we will reclaim Higher, higher and higher We are the witches who will never be burned We are the witches who have learned what it is to be free. The flames of love are burning bright, Higher and higher and higher! Flickering dancing in the night. Higher and higher and Higher ! We are the witches who will never be burned We are the witches who have learned what it is to be free. Weave your power with the wind, Higher and Higher and Higher! We will change and we will spin. Higher and Higher and Higher! We are the witches who will never be burned We are the witches who have learned what it is to be free. Cleansing fire burns strong and sure, Higher and Higher and Higher! Consuming evil, making pure. Higher and Higher and Higher! We are the witches who will never be burned We are the witches who have learned what it is to be free. (Lyrics via Celia; May 2020-05-20 In the Ravnstrup Women's Peace Camp songbook. "We are the Witches" is dated Greenham 1983.. No information about author and composer.) [[Sing another song.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/witches.mp3" autoplay>

What would you like to ask Jade Britton? [[Can you tell me a little bit about your background, sort of pre-Greenham?|Jade Britton Tell me a little bit about your background first, sort of pre-Greenham.]] [[What actions did you do? What sort of things did you do on your actions?|Jade Britton What actions did you do? What sort of things did you do on your actions]]

Okay well, I did um, a degree in English late. I was a mature student. So I did that for 3 years, and my first job after that was working in a school as a bursar, oddly enough. And I lived in a town called Tamworth, which was outside Birmingham and what happened was, I met other women in the town, and we became the women’s group in that area. And so, I know, anyway, so um, we were um, the um, er, we joined things like Women for Life on Earth and we um, we were the Prisoners Wives group, we worked in the Labour Party to have a separate women’s section, we were the Battered Women’s Refuge group and we campaigned for an ran a phone line to help women that were suffering violence at home, and we actually got a refuge from um, the local council, which was quite unheard of at the time. And so when the chance came, a group of us all decided to get a coach and go down to Greenham. [[What year was this?|Jade Britton What year was this?]] [[What did you family and friends think of you?|Jade Britton While this was all going on, what did you family and friends think of you?]] [[You were, or you are a feminist?|Jade Britton You were, or you are a feminist.]]

Oh I can’t remember. [[Roughly?|Jade Britton Roughly?]] [[Did you know Sue...Ann Pettitt?|Jade Britton Did you know Sue...Ann Pettitt?]]

No, but I know Rowan - Rowan Gweddon, she was one of the women who did Embrace the Base and danced on the silos, and was arrested and sent to prison for that. She ended up at Violet Gate. [[And which gate were you staying at?|Jade Britton And which gate were you staying at?]] [[What was the maximum number at Violet Gate?|Jade Britton What was the maximum number at Violet Gate?]]

1980s...I honestly don't know. [[So you arrived early-mid ‘80s?|Jade Britton So you arrived early-mid ‘80s?]] [[Did you follow any of the convoys out? Or go to Salisbury Plain?|Jade Britton Did you follow any of the convoys out? Or go to Salisbury Plain?]]

Yeah. [[Um, what happened? You arrived - you were there, what happened next?|Jade Britton Um, what happened? You arrived - you were there, what happened next?]] [[Did you follow any of the convoys out? Or go to Salisbury Plain?|Jade Britton Did you follow any of the convoys out? Or go to Salisbury Plain?]]

Well, as I say we went down with a coach load, and I don’t know - I just felt an incredible pull towards the place. Um, and I spent the next 3 or 4 months going back and forward, and going every weekend I could, and eventually I decided that you know, that was where I was meant to be, and so I quit the job and moved down there, so um, I sort of ended up...it coincided South East Women for Women on Earth were doing a walk from Greenham and Menwith Hill, so that was to call attention to the whole nuclear issues, and so myself and another friend called Kullah, um we decided to join that march. They were saying ‘oh yeah, come with us, it’d be so nice to have you’. We were talking one night around the fire, and some of the women from that project were there, and so we decided we would do that, as you know - I would move down to the camp, and sort of - after the weekend we would join with them, and we would do the marching with them. So that was an incredible journey, because for the first 2 weeks were were literally marching along between small rural towns and small rural areas, um, meeting an incredible amount of people who would hear about this little band of women sort of tronking along the road, and the children were in a bus driven by male supporters, and we’d pitch up in places where you know, they’d have heard of us coming, and I can remember one where a man and his wife came rushing out and saying ‘we’ve got lunch all ready for you’, and we sort of scrunched into their tiny two up and two down, and they fed the whole lot of us - there was about fifteen of us. [[Where did you stay at night?|Jade Britton Where did you stay at night?]] [[What was your reception, generally - any adverse reactions?|Jade Britton What was your reception, generally - any adverse reactions?]]

Er, all kinds of places. We stayed, er, in an area where I think there was a school hall, we stayed at sports areas, we camped out all kinds of places - it was just a motley array of things. We joined up with Miner’s Wives groups, um I think - was it in Leeds or Sheffield? I can’t remember, but we got to one of them, and we were invited to go to the town hall for a reception - they were holding a reception, so we, you know from all these different things..... [[What was your reception, generally - any adverse reactions?|Jade Britton What was your reception, generally - any adverse reactions?]] [[How do you think the media represented women, Greenham women?|Jade Britton How do you think the media represented women, Greenham women?]]

No, no, I mean the villages we were walking through were lots of working class people who were very very supportive, and who welcomed us with open arms. And as I said, people opened their doors - they’d say ‘we heard you were coming’, and you know, just ordinary people would just invite us into their homes, or give us food, or say ‘we’ve made sandwiches for you’. Or you know, and they’d just turn up, and it was fantastic. I think we quit just before the end, and left them to go ahead, and we went back to Greenham. [[To Greenham?|Jade Britton To Greenham?]] [[How do you think the media represented women, Greenham women?|Jade Britton How do you think the media represented women, Greenham women?]]

Yeah, that’s when I stayed full time. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well I went - I used to go down to Indigo, but Indigo was just on a stretch of road, and there was nowhere on the other side of the road where you could be. So literally you’d have a pallet and somewhere to stay, but it was very very exposed, and a very narrow strip of grass that it was on. And gradually I worked my way down to the next one along, which was Violet Gate. So Violet Gate, it was known as the Violet Gate Slope, so you slid your way down it sometimes, but um, you would be sitting there, around the fire pit, and you could duck across the road and go up between the, there was a little path that lead up to a little bit of clearing with trees and bushes, and on the other side of that was the golf course, so it was a nice stretch of green where you could build benders and things like that. It was a gate, so there were gates there, but they never opened them, so you could park your vehicles up quite easily. [[Any interaction with the golfers?|Jade Britton Any interaction with the golfers?]] [[What was special about Violet Gate for you? What was different about it compared to the other gates?|Jade Britton What was special about Violet Gate for you? What was different about it compared to the other gates?]]

Um, I think they were just kind of like disdainful, but tried to ignore it and pretend it wasn’t happening, so yeah. But not really any interaction with the golfers, no. [[What was special about Violet Gate for you? What was different about it compared to the other gates?|Jade Britton What was special about Violet Gate for you? What was different about it compared to the other gates?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, if you had to explain to a visitor, and you were saying what each of the gates were like, it would be kind of, well Yellow Gate was the activist gate and the political gate, because that’s where all the cameras went, and the other people - like if visitors came up, I mean it did wind me up terribly one time. I went to stay at Red Gate one time, and um, a lot of people had gone off for various things, I think there were only two of us that were there, and when we woke up at like half five or six in the morning, the police had arrived with the bailiffs and the munchers ready to tear down everything. And a woman in a very, it must have been quite an expensive sports car rolled up, and she said ‘oh, I’m looking for the Greenham women, and you know, I want to know if they need any help?’ And I said ‘well, as you can see, we’re getting evicted, and there’s only two of us, so we can’t rescue everyone’s things, and if you can help that would be wonderful’, and she kind of looked us up and down, and she said ‘no, actually I was wanting to go and speak to the real Greenham women’, I said ‘well you want Yellow Gate then - you just keep on going, love’, and off she went, roared away and left us to it. So it was just kind of like (takes big exasperated breath, laughs). But she wanted the place where all the campers were, because that’s what she thought was the real camp. So occasionally we had that, so yeah - Yellow Gate was sort of the activist gate. Green Gate was the ecologically sound gate - I did know somebody who was there for quite a long time, and um, she needed a holiday - she needed a break - every now and then people just needed a break, and so she went to Green Gate for two weeks for her holidays. Because we didn’t have men at Green Gate, and it was off the road - it was up a different track, and they were very into ecology and having all the right recycling bags, and all the rest of it, so she went and had her holiday for two weeks at Green Gate. Um, so, then there was, um, Blue Gate, which was kind of the young anarchists’ gate - punk, and the joke was if you sat down there for more than 20 minutes, they’d Mohican your hair, or dye it blue. Then there was Indigo, which was again - it was all a precarious kind of gate, um, but it was quite a likely one where they might bring convoys out. And then there was Violet Gate, and actually I should - because the Violet one was the one I was at. And there was Orange Gate, and Orange Gate was the creative gate - it was where people, they had a very nice flat area, and they could do canopies over it, so they used to sometimes they would drive round in a van, and all of a sudden they’d leap out and perform some kind of skit or songs or something to entertain you, and then they’d all pile back in and drive off, so they were the entertainment gate. And they used to - people used to play musical instruments, and people would gravitate there - sort of arty. Red Gate sprang up just as an annex because it got really busy, and sometimes you’d get other little gates - Turquoise Gate, I think it was a vegan gate at one point, and then somebody thought of a fruitarian gate, but I never got to that one! (Laughs). But Violet Gate became known as, and visitors said to me - when I took them on this um, er, to d a water run, and they said ‘What about Violet Gate though, because that’s where you live?’ And I said ‘Um, I think that’s the gate where we just eat all the time!’ And we weren’t particularly - there wasn’t any prescription on if you were lesbian, there were a lot of people there that were straight, we ate meat, we had fish for Christmas dinner one time, so we were - one of our women ended up writing to a squaddie from behind the fence for quite a long time. [[That’s interesting - how did that come about? Do you know?|Jade Britton That’s interesting - how did that come about? Do you know?]] [[The people that came to visit you, um, and the other gates - were they generally individuals, or were they part of organised groups like, I don’t know - church groups?|Jade Britton The people that came to visit you, um, and the other gates - were they generally individuals, or were they part of organised groups like, I don’t know - church groups?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

She just talked to him (laughs)! [[Did you talk much to people behind the fence?|Jade Britton Did you talk much to people behind the dance?]] [[[[Was there any tension between the gates at all?|Jade Britton Was there any tension between the gates at all?]]

Yeah, quite a lot. Sometimes they’d be hostile and quite horrible, and sometimes they’d be... [[These are the police?|Jade Britton These are the police?]] [[Can you remember any conversations?|Jade Britton Can you remember any conversations?]]

Well no, they were always the British - they were the British troops on the... [[Inside the perimeter?|Jade Britton Inside the perimeter?]] [[Can you remember any conversations?|Jade Britton Can you remember any conversations?]]

Um, not particularly - but they were concerned about the nuclear, about the whole nuclear idea. Um, I mean I remember seeing 'Threads' televised, and the possibility of a nuclear issue got worse and worse, and in the end I thought you know, I’m not prepared to just sit at home and wait for something to happen, so that was part of the motivation for going to Greenham. I thought at-least if I’m there, then I’m - whatever I’m saying I don’t agree with this, and I don’t think it should be happening. [[Did you feel very afraid that...|Jade Britton Did you feel very afraid that...]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

On the inside of the perimeter, and you never saw the Americans, because they kept separate from that. Occasionally there would be one of the um, Americans would drive up, and sit and get out, and talk, and the British squaddies were like ‘okay mate, you’ve been here 20 minutes, if you’re here any longer were going to have to report you’, and we’d always say ‘go now, because we don’t want you to get into trouble and stuff like that’. [[So there’d be an American GI who’d stop and talk?|Jade Britton So there’d be an American GI who’d stop and talk?]] [[Can you remember any conversations?|Jade Britton Can you remember any conversations?]]

Yeah, sure. [[Can you remember any conversations?|Jade Britton Can you remember any conversations?]] [[[[Was there any tension between the gates at all?|Jade Britton Was there any tension between the gates at all?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think we were all quite - and if you ever saw the convoys going out, it’s the thought of those things being deployed in the British countryside that really...and when you saw them come out, um, and they would - you know, the police or whatever would pen you in, and try to stop you getting the word out - because people would jump in cars and follow it so they would see that they couldn’t deploy them without people getting the word out in the British countryside, that they didn’t have license to just do as they pleased with these weapons of mass destruction, so yeah, I think it was - I think it was very very real at that time, and we - personally, I felt a very sense of strong - I might be blown up by a nuclear missile - I might as well be right outside the darn base if that’s going to happen, and I might as well be telling people I don’t agree with it. So, and there was an awful lot of support for that. You know. When the evictions started - I remember after the first big eviction happened, um, and I went down and I wasn’t sure if the camp was, of-course it was still there! It was Iike don’t be so silly, of-course it’s still going to be there, but they had taken away a lot of equipment the women had been using, and the benders and things, um and at those days um, obviously you were sleeping outside, and before you could come up with anything else to cover you or to sleep in, um people say ‘oh we should get Gore-Tex bags’, because you can get orange plastic bags, um, and put your sleeping bag - but the condensation is terrible, and you end up wringing wet, so the Gore-Tex bags are breathable, and people say ‘oh you know, we tried to get Gore-Tex bags, but we couldn’t get them anywhere, we were trying in London and all the shops were saying they were sold out’. I can remember a guy coming down and he opened the boot of his car and he said ‘how many of you are staying here, how many of you need Gore- Texs?’ And we were all like putting our hands up, and he was literally handing them out like packets of crisps, and in those days they were really expensive, and he must have gone out and bought up everything he had. The incredible generosity of people who would just turn up, and you know you might never seem them again. [[What sort of things did they bring apart from Gore-Tex?|Jade Britton What sort of things did they bring apart from Gore-Tex?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh my goodness. People... [[Food, presumably? Wine?|Jade Britton Food, presumably? Wine?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

After the evictions, and when it was - then they got the bailiffs coming in, so they were the bin men, really. Um, and sometimes they’d have a police escort. And yeah sometimes they could be quite nasty, and a couple of them got a bit of a reputation for that. But at one point you know they had Youth Opportunity bailiffs - so these sixteen and seventeen year olds! (Laughs). So they had YOPs bailiffs - so it was quite funny, actually. [[The mind boggles.|Jade Britton The mind boggles.]] [[And they’d have been local kids, wouldn’t they?|Jade Britton And they’d have been local kids, wouldn’t they?]]

Yeah, so the first time they had these the YOPs kids turned up, and we had a bit of fun with them, so I was following one around, I was saying ‘perhaps you need to pick that up’, because they were saying ‘well, what do I do now?’ And we’d say ‘just take that up, and you know, go and put it in the mud sheet, you’ll be alright’, and they were going off and doing it - we were telling them what to do! It was really hysterical, because they didn’t realise, and the actual bailiffs were getting quite aeriated about it, because we were treating them like family. [[And they’d have been local kids, wouldn’t they?|Jade Britton And they’d have been local kids, wouldn’t they?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, probably, so it was quite funny. Sometimes you could - they could be a sty, and sometimes they could be quite alright. And I remember one time they turned up quite early in the morning and they said ‘right, well we’ll take your van’, and I said ‘do you know what?’ They said ‘are you the driver?’ I said ‘yeah, I’m the driver’, and they said ‘well you better drive it away now because otherwise we’re going to have to impound it.’ And I smelt a rat because I thought you don’t want to impound it, you probably want to go home and get your tea or something, so I said ‘do you know what, I’ve had it with these women here, they just expect me to do everything for them, and they’re just taking me for granted - you take the van.’ ‘Go on, you take it, I think it’ll serve them right’, and he was going ‘oh come on, you can’t mean that, they’re your friends!’. (Laughs). And in the end he was begging me to drive the van away - it was really funny! [[Reverse psychology?|Jade Britton Reverse psychology?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was just fun, do you know what I mean, but we yeah, so um, there was that. But my best time - I was taking driving lessons while I was down there with another woman, and we had this lovely guy - he was an older guy from Thatcham, and he was really retired, but that was his contribution to the effort. And he was giving driving lessons. And we were driving one day, and we were going along, and I went ‘oh my god, look there’s a muncher at Blue Gate’, and he said (affects slightly posh voice) ‘oh, sorry are we supposed to doing something?’ I said ‘yes, we need to turn around and go back and warn the other gates because everybody is asleep’, and he went ‘okay, okay Jade, if you could just take a right here’, and so we turned around and drove back and he stopped opposite the Violet Gate, and he went ‘what do we do now?’ And I went ‘just roll the window down and shout ‘munchers at Blue Gate’, and he went ‘oh, okay then (clears throat), munchers at Blue Gate!’ (Laughs), and he rolled it down and says ‘do we go to another one now?’ I said yeah, ‘we’ll go to Orange Gate’. [[Learning to drive round...that’s brilliant!|Jade Britton Learning to drive round...that’s brilliant!]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah! It was so funny, and was so sweet - he was a lovely lovely guy. But you either had people who were all on your side, or people that were very much against you. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I mean we did have one time when it was pouring with rain and nobody felt like getting out of the van at all, because it was just mud everywhere, and somebody knocked on the van, and we reluctantly opened the door, and they said ‘oh we’ve got these women here from Bulgaria, and they want to talk to you.’ And we said ‘you know, it’s not a good day - take them round to Orange Gate, because they’ve got tarpaulins and they can sit out there and it’ll be warm, because they’ve got a fire - we haven’t even got a fire going.’ So they went off, and Elizabeth Abrahams, who was one of the women at Violet Gate, she said ‘oh I’m going to go off - because she had her own car, and she said ‘I’m going to go off and see about this’. Anyway, she came back about 3 hours later and we said ‘oh, how was it Elizabeth?’ And she went ‘oh, they’re amazing - these women came across and they’ve given’, and she was twirling something in her hand, and I said ‘what’s that?’ And she said ‘oh, it’s a medal - it’s the highest honour you can give to a woman in Bulgaria, and they were handing them out to Orange Gate’, and she was whizzing it round on her thing, and it was like okay, well we missed that one, but never mind. [[Did you have much connection with overseas women - either visiting, or did you ever get involved with any groups and go off?|Jade Britton Did you have much connection with overseas women - either visiting, or did you ever get uncles with any groups and go off?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, so um, I mean I did quite a bit of work in other countries, actually. So it might be doing something like - I did a self defense workshop at um, Newcastle University, because they asked for some women and said ‘does anyone want to go?’ And I said ‘oh, I’ll go and do it, because I’ve done some non-violent direct action stuff’. And then we were invited to go over to Hamburg for the Hamburg Women’s Festival, and we showed the film Carry Greenham Home. [[This is mid 1980s, isn’t it?|Jade Britton this is mid 1980s, isn’t it?]] [[You didn’t go to Russia, did you?|Jade Britton You didn’t go to Russia, did you?]]

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. So we did that, and they were taken about - when they saw pictures on the screen of the police marching towards the women because um they said in Hamburg, or in Germany it was far more brutal, and you know they thought we were going to get a real bad beating, and we said ‘well our police just tend to want to try to move us from one place another, and then somebody else lies down, so it’s kind of like a thankless task’. But um, so we did some of that networking, and I also went out to Vancouver, and in Vancouver we went out to Vancouver Island - we did a radio show. [[What group was that with? Who organised it at that end?|Jade Britton What group was that with? Who organised it at that end?]] [[You didn’t go to Russia, did you?|Jade Britton You didn’t go to Russia, did you?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Do you know I can’t honestly - they were running a peace camp on Vancouver Island, and it was against the uranium mining. [[Gosh, not very British!|Jade Britton Gosh, not very British!]] [[Did Greenham common fund any of this?|Jade Britton Did Greenham common fund any of this? Because I know there was a pot of money that people would...]]

(Laughs). Yeah - nothing like the way we operated at all. But it was really interesting. We asked about possibly going on a, there was a camp where they were actually doing the uranium mining further up in the north of Canada, and we expressed an interest, but when we realised that you have to take your own water and food and everything, and you’re probably going to be at-least three days away from anywhere that’s got a post office, or anything like that, you have to be completely self sufficient and know what you’re doing. We didn’t have that expertise, so we ended up - we didn’t go. We stayed on a Women’s Herb Farm on Vancouver Island, and we met lots of other women’s groups that were on the island, so that was really interesting. [[Sounds great, how long were you there for? Two weeks?|Jade Britton Sounds great, how long were you there for? Two weeks?]] [[Did Greenham common fund any of this?|Jade Britton Did Greenham common fund any of this? Because I know there was a pot of money that people would...]]

Oh longer than that - couple of months maybe. [[Oh, months?|Jade Britton Oh, months?]] [[Did Greenham common fund any of this?|Jade Britton Did Greenham common fund any of this? Because I know there was a pot of money that people would...]]

Yeah, so we spent quite a bit of time out there. [[Did Greenham common fund any of this?|Jade Britton Did Greenham common fund any of this? Because I know there was a pot of money that people would...]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well people would send donations, and then um, you’d - they would have money meetings, and everyone could go and input their two cents - ‘well, people want a group to go over there, if anybody’s interested in going’. So it was open - anybody could pitch in and go and whatever they wanted to do. And so if you were there at the time and you said ‘oh yeah, I’d be interested in that’, because I’m also Canadian - that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to go and get involved, so um, I’m a dual-national, so yeah. You would just get involved in that. I think I was a signatory at one point as well, but that wasn’t a job that I wanted to hold for very long - I only did it because there wasn't anybody else available at the time, and I got out of it as soon as I could, because I didn’t really want to be doing that - you know. [[It’s quite a responsibility to do that for a long time.|Jade Britton It’s quite a responsibility to do that for a long time.]] [[Any other foreign trips that you did?|Jade Britton Any other foreign trips that you did?]]

Yeah, yeah. So I didn’t particularly want to be involved in that. [[Any other foreign trips that you did?|Jade Britton Any other foreign trips that you did?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I can’t think of any. I mean we travelled to different places in different towns. [[You didn’t go to Russia, did you?|Jade Britton You didn’t go to Russia, did you?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

No. Elizabeth did - bless her. Elizabeth Abrahams. The other thing that we did, I will just tell you, because this also involved Elizabeth, so um, and I was with her at the time. A lot of us went up to the Barrow demonstration - where they were demonstrating against the biggest ship yard, and building of nuclear subs. So we went up there, and because my mother had lived up there (laughs), so I went up as well, and I said ‘you won’t like it very much’, and they said ‘oh no, it’s on the coast’, and I said ‘um hum, okay if that’s what you want to think’. And I met Annie later on, and she said ‘you know what you said about - you were right, it’s a real dump!’. So yeah, because my mother had lived there and I knew. So anyway, we went up there and there as kind of quite a straggly bunch of us, and some of us had kids and things, and Elizabeth Abrahams were there, and her family - at one point - had owned Swarthmore Hall, which was the birth place of the Quaker movement. And I’d remembered visiting this place as a child, so I knew the things, so we went along to that and there was a Quaker couple who were custodians of the place at the time, and they invited us all to stay there. They wouldn’t hear of us going and camping out somewhere ‘you must stay with us’, and they fed us, they gave us breakfast in the morning, and it was just lovely. And the Quakers actually - especially in Newbury were amazing, amazing people, because I don’t know if anybody else has told you - but they had a separate um, they had their own meeting house, but they cordoned off a part of it, and built an area with um, um, to sit with washing machines and things - so people could go and have a shower, and wash their clothes and do all that. They were incredibly supportive - they didn’t always agree with everything we did, but they were incredibly, incredibly supportive, and of-course they’re against weapons, so um they were a godsend because that was great - you had somewhere to go and do your clothes. Although there were other people in Newbury who also opened up their houses, and you could go and have a bath there, or do your clothes, or go to the launderette or whatever. [[Was it sort of 50/50 support and anti-Greenham...what was the feeling you were left with?|Jade Britton Was it sort of 50/50 support and anti-Greenham...what was the feeling you were left with?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, I mean the, some places, I mean there as a cafe where a lot of the women went - if you went into Newbury and you were signing on, and you would go there for something to eat, you know, and have a cup of tea. And some placed would refuse to serve you, so it was like either they loved you, or they liked you, or they didn’t mind because you were bringing money in, and there was one pub called The Ruckabee, and that is where people used to go on a Friday night! And they had a no dancing rule, but boy we’d all sit there and have a good time, and it was great, so yeah. [[So it was mixed?|Jade Britton So it was mixed?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was mixed, but I kind of, I kind of, um, I was used to having abusive from - especially from the local youth, because that’s how they you know - that’s how youth are, and I kind of got so immune to it that I didn’t, I was with somebody who hadn’t been at camp very long - I think she’d only been down for a weekend, and we were walking along the road, and we turned - we passed some Newbury youth and um, I turned around to find this girl, young woman - not girl, young woman, and she was in tears. And I said ‘what’s the matter?’, she said ‘they spat at you’. I said ‘oh yeah, they kind of do that all the time’, and she said ‘I can’t see how you can bear it, and I thought I should really challenge it, I know, but I can’t be bothered. I’m not going to educate them because they’re - they were too much into doing there own thing. But we did have some trouble with Newbury youth from time to time, and there was people who would drive up in cars, and there was the some talk of fire bombing and things like that - throwing things. [[Newbury youth being male, female, mixed?|Jade Britton Newbury youth being male, female, mixed?]] [[Why do you think they were so horrible?|Jade Britton Why do you think they were so horrible?]]

Male. Pretty much young males. But to be honest, to be fair we didn’t even know if they were from Newbury, it’s just that’s what you called them, because it was just ‘oh yeah, the Newbury youth came round and threw rocks at the truck’, or something. So, but you know... [[Why do you think they were so horrible?|Jade Britton Why do you think they were so horrible?]] [[Drunk and..|Jade Britton Drunk and...]]

Probably because they heard their parents saying ‘it’s disgusting, it’s a disgrace, it shouldn’t be allowed’, and that they thought - how does any hate thing start? I’m sure the Nazis started that way. But I’m not saying they were like that, I think they just thought it was a bit of a joke, they had a bit of a license, and no-one would care if they did stuff like that. [[Friday night a market town?|Jade Britton Friday night a market town?]] [[Drunk and..|Jade Britton Drunk and...]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, yeah.. [[Drunk and..|Jade Britton Drunk and...]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Sure. Yeah, you know. But as far as I’m aware I don’t think anything specifically bad happened, at-least not when I was there anyway. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh that was hard to tell. [[Roughly?|Jade Britton Roughly]] [[Did the women always use their real names?|Jade Britton And did the women always use their real names?]]

Well I kind of gave a list of about ten or fifteen names. [[So not many women there. Did you ever feel vulnerable at all?|Jade Britton So not many women there. Did you ever feel vulnerable at all?]] [[Did the women always use their real names?|Jade Britton And did the women always use their real names?]]

Occasionally you did. Yeah, I think Jane was there one night, and she was sleeping in the back of the van, and when we - I think we’d been out somewhere, and when we got back she said ‘oh god, you know while you were away some of the Newbury youth came by.’ Again, I’m not trying to malign the, because we don’t know they were actually from Newbury, but that was the supposition. Um, and I said, we said ‘what happened, what happened?’ And she said ‘they opened up the van and they saw me there, and of-course I woke up when they came. They were just talking to me for a very long time.’ She said ‘I was a bit twitchy because I didn’t know what they were going to do, but in the end they got back in their car and went off’. She said ‘I just talked to them’, and usually you can talk your way out of things - calm it down, and that was true of a lot of things, like the non-violent direct action things. I remember a woman called Meryl, and the police came along and they were trying to hang onto us, and I think they had Meryl by the wrists or something, and she was going (sings) ‘shall we dance?’, and she started waltzing this guy around, and he was in hysterics, he just couldn’t keep a straight face at all. And so you diffused it - either by treating them as real people, as opposed to something that was being officious and nasty, and generally they responded. You did get a couple of people who were just mean tempered, or maybe they’d had a bad day, but that’s true of anything. But mostly people you know, even on the other side were perfectly reasonable. [[Did the women always use their real names?|Jade Britton And did the women always use their real names?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh, well for example when we went up for the Barrow in Furness thing, one thing we did was we went to um, Winscale - now Sellafields, or whatever, and Rebecca Johnson was there for one of those ones. And one of the women said ‘oh look, it’s only a fence, you can make a nice little hole and just go under’! So a whole bunch of us slipped through, we just went through, and by the time they’d cottoned on that there was a whole bunch of us in there - I mean we wee just singing and you know, and then they just escorted us out of the gates. [[No arrests or anything?|Jade Britton No arrests or anything?]] [[And did you have meetings before you took any actions - informal or formal depending on what it was?|Jade Britton And did you have meetings before you took any actions - informal or formal depending on what it was?]]

No, no, I mean they wouldn’t have wanted the publicity. When they had the control tower action that was Rebecca... [[At Greenham?|Jade Britton At Greenham?]] [[Were you ever arrested?|Jade Britton Were you arrested?]]

Yeah. And Jill, and I can’t remember - there was another woman and I can’t remember her name, um and one of the things they did - they’d graffiti, they’d write their names on stuff because otherwise you see they’d claim it had never happened, and they’d been no breach, and all the rest of it, so they wrote their names on stuff, so they ended up going for trial about a year later, and it was at Reading Crown Court. So a bunch of us went, um, obviously to sit through trial. And Rebecca being Rebecca, she was very vocal and very articulate, and she would say all these things. Anyway at one point when they told her to be quiet, I think she burst into song, and she just carried on. And they said if she wouldn’t agree to be bound over by the police, they were going to take her down to the cells and she would have to stay there, otherwise she’d be - they would send her to prison. And so what she did was she kept on singing, so they took her away - so Jill started singing as well. # And Jill was a young American, and she was due to go back - and her parents were there for the trial, as well. And she was due to go back and start university, and obviously if she was going to be banged up, then she wouldn’t be able to start. So we were quite despondent, because she was taken down to the cells as well, and we thought ‘oh, okay, so they’re both going to be in prison’. And obviously we had Jill’s parents with us as well, so we went back to the house where we were staying in Reading, and I think we’d gone for something to eat or something, and then we went back to the house, and when we got back there was Jill sitting there. We said ‘Jill! What’, shesaid ‘oh, I agreed to be bound over, do you know Rebecca didn’t stop singing the whole time, and I couldn’t take it any more, so I said I’d be bound over, so I’ll be heading back to America to start my degree course.’ So it was just funny, but I mean Rebecca could sing for England, and she knew all the words (laughs)! So yeah, it was quite - but again it’s just human, you could just as easily turn around and say something else, or do something else. [[Were you arrested?|Jade Britton Were you arrested?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

No, I was - I was picked up inside the gate one time with other people who had been inside the base, and I remembered thinking ‘well if they can do it’, and I started singing, and in the end they went ‘shall we just let this lot out at the next gate?’ And the other guy said ‘please, I can’t take much more of this’, and I thought there you go - it worked, perfect (laughs)! So I didn’t have to protest or do anything. [[So no arrests for you?|Jade Britton So no arrests for you?]] [[But you went and supported and ...|Jade Britton But you went and supported and ...]]

No, I never got arrested, no. [[But you went and supported and ...|Jade Britton But you went and supported and ...]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh yeah. And there was lots of things that went on in Newbury Crown Court, New Court - not Crown Court, because it was Reading Crown Court. But in the Newbury Court we’d go down there quite often, and I think the thing was was that we’d go in to support women who’d done a variety of things, and I can remember one woman, um, and this guy had arrested her, and he’d said that she’d cut the fence. I remember this one really well, um, and they said ‘oh and you saw her cutting...’, and she did her own cross examinations, so she said ‘oh and you saw me cutting fence, what with?’ And he said ‘bolt cutters, these bolt cutters - big things’, and she went ‘okay, so you’re’ - I don’t know if you remember To Kill A Mockingbird and the trial? And she said ‘that’s really interesting that you saw me doing that, because I haven’t been able to use this hand since I was a child because it’s partly paralysed’. And the guy’s face was purple, and the magistrate was like ‘er, what would you like...’, and through gritted teeth he said ‘I must have been mistaken...gggrrr’. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh god no, no no no (laughs)! Um, I think when they had the big surround the base thing, and the idea was as many women as possible would get arrested - so the whole point was either not to give your name, or to give a false name. So they were trying to get people arrested so they would fill up all the jails, and then they would create a big stir, because obviously they couldn’t arrest all the ordinary criminals - our women were considered more like political prisoners because of their beliefs, and so sometimes you’d hear names in court ‘is there a Barbie Wire here?’ Or ‘a Freida People?’ (Laughs), so there were those kinds of things, but when they were trying to do some arrests and they got some women stood in a row, and of-course everyone was wearing different clothing, and the guy would turn around and go and look somewhere, and they’d all swap places! And he’d go ‘where’s that woman I was just talking to?’ And he literally couldn’t tell one from the other - probably we all kind of looked the same. And another woman, a similar thing happened, and she had one of these reversible coats on - blue on one side and red on the other - so just took her coat off and put it on again, and when the guy tuned round he said ‘where’s that woman I was talking to a minute ago?’ ‘I don’t know, haven’t seen her, she must have gone off there somewhere!’. Just looked at him, and ‘oh, I’ll see if I can find her’, and off he went, so do you know what I mean - people were very...but yeah! I think the problem was sometimes a lot of women came down, and they didn’t really have the expertise on the bid demonstrations , and a lot of us tried to walk round, and sometimes you got a situation either where they brought horses in and people got quite scared and panicked, or they didn’t really know how to deal with a situation so that it didn’t escalate into something that was distressing and possibly violent. And I can remember going round one time and some women had cut a - I can’t remember if they’d cut a hole, or cut some fence and managed to push it down, and er, a couple of the women had got on the other side, and one young copper had grabbed hold of this woman, and arrested her, and everybody on the other side - on our side of the fence was getting very, very um, it was getting a bit rough, so I went ‘okay, okay he’s arrested her now anyway, so let’s calm down’, and I said to him ‘look, we can sort this out - we get that you’ve arrested her, that’s fine, yeah, but you know - she’s here with her friends, so they don’t know where you’re taking her, and so I said who is with this woman?’ So somebody piped up and said ‘there’s about six of us’, so she drove us down - ‘there’s a van, but she’s got the keys’, so I said ‘how about you let her give the keys back, and then you can just carry on? And where are you taking her?’ And he said ‘Yellow Gate, there’ll be the main...’ so I said ‘so they can get the van and they can meet her there in what 2 or 3 hours, is that the fair thing?’ And he went ‘yeah, that’s fine’ and they all calmed down, and it all went back. But people didn’t understand. [[You had the experience?|Jade Britton You had the experience?]] [[So how long ago did Greenham - the gates shut in 2000, I think, didn’t they - the last one? So it's almost 20 years, isn't it?|Jade Britton So how long ago did Greenham - the gates shut in 2000, I think, didn’t they - the last one?]]

Yeah, but not everybody - when people came down, I think some of the women that lived there felt - not negative about it, because obviously it was amazing, but worried that a lot of them came down and didn’t know how to deal with stuff, so we worried about, and it did mean some people got a bit worried or distressed because they’d never seen like convoys go out, or sort of - you know, people getting quite aggressive on the other side. And the poor young copper was like ‘god I wish I hadn’t...’ because there’s this mob of women, um, and her was - you have to realise that they were scared too a lot of the time. And that time in Winscale and we were looking round, and Rebecca was singing one of her songs, and i could see a couple of the young coppers that were stood there, and one was definitely had tears in their eyes, and the other was going - you know, you could tell they understood why we were doing it, and they weren’t aggressive or you know, they had to do their jobs, and we totally got that - and they weren’t allowed to voice it, but you could tell they were sympathetic. [[Some would have been very young.|Jade Britton Some would have been very young.]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. [[19 - I mean teenagers, really.|Jade Britton 19 - I mean teenagers, really.]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. And they didn’t know how to handle great mobs of people - you wouldn’t, so people tried to be considerate - that’s why we sort of taught, tied to teach non violent direct action - make it a game, or make it fun, or talk to them, or say something - you know, try to diffuse it, it’s not, it’s non-violent, so we want to diffuse things as opposed to ramping up the tension, because that helps nobody. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, I can remember again jumping into the car with, um, um, Elizabeth and we chased...we chased...there was one lot of convoy come out where they penned us in. It tended to be more at Blue Gate, but I think I was there one time when they brought some of the things out, and they do look just like - and again there a lot of the police looked quite like distressed and upset, because they didn’t know, and we didn’t know if this was the real thing - we didn’t know if this was going to be them firing things off, and you never knew. And they would corral you, because they were trying to stop you getting to phone trees - because we had the phone tree, and they would alert people to send out convoys to either stop them or identify them and let people know they were going out. So when we went out - again with Elizabeth, and we were sort of chasing the convoys and of-course they’d split up and go in different directions, but yeah. Yeah, um, so sometimes you’d chase them. But I can remember that time they sort of penned us in, and some - two or three got away, and (laughs) I didn’t think how that might end - lay down in front of it, and got dragged away, but at the time I was thinking ‘okay, I didn’t really think about what if it ran over me, but never mind!’ (Laughs). But yeah, so um, people obviously did that. [[What do you think the impact was on the women’s physical and mental health if they were there for a long time at Greenham? If there was any impact?|Jade Britton What do you think the impact was on the women’s physical and mental health if they were there for a long time at Greenham? If there was any impact?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I’m sure some things were organised, but mostly it was people doing - one or two or three people, I mean this was always the beauty of it - it’s like you know, they always thought there must be this huge organisation going on, and actually it was individuals going ‘do you know what, let’s cut down a bit of fence and go in tonight’ you know. And I think for the Ten Thousand Women Come for Ten Days - or whatever it was, can’t remember exactly now, and I remember that there was - I think a plane came over of rather um, quite a lot of elderly women who came over - I think it was New Zealand or Australia - I can’t remember now, and they came down and they were desperate, they wanted to go inside the base, and finally they said ‘can somebody help us, because we want to go in and make our point, and we’ve come all this way’. So somebody said ‘oh yeah alright, I’ll help you’, so I think they cut down - because you had to cut down the fence and lay it over the bare bed wire so people could get in with their walking sticks and their zimmer frames. And so they went in, and I didn’t go in for that part, but the story that was told was that they were going down the runway, and there was a speeding car coming up and they thought, ‘oh we’ll all get arrested, so we’ll all sit down in a circle and be arrested holding hands’, so they all managed to get down and were holding hands, and the car went straight past, so they all had to get back up again, which was probably quite difficult - you know! [[So it was non-hierarchical?|Jade Britton So it was non-hierarchical?]] [[Anarchical..|Jade Britton Anarchical?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh god, totally. [[Anarchical?|Jade Britton Anarchical?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. I think I remember Rowan went out - I think she went to the Breaking the Sound Barrier action in Australia, and she networked out there. She went to the Breaking the Sound thing, and there was this big debate ‘is cutting the wire violence?’ And they did everything by consensus, so everybody got in little groups, and they went off and then, you know, they all debated it, and if one group came back and said ‘no, we still think it’s violence’, and then they went back. After about four days of this, so I think there was a couple of Greenham women, and I don’t know if Rowan was one of those, but apparently somebody from the back went ‘what if somebody had already done it?’ (Laughs!). They’d already cut the fence, and they were like (snorts), subverted the consensus things, but you could run round. I mean it was a great idea but sometimes you...yeah, so pretty much it was the big demonstrations were pretty much organised by groups. [[Groups within Greenham?|Jade Britton Groups within Greenham?]] [[Who would be...|Jade Britton Who would be...]]

Not necessarily. Groups outside. [[Who would be...|Jade Britton Who would be...]] [[I was thinking whether outside peace groups were you know - were they organising on the big actions?|Jade Britton I was thinking whether outside peace groups were you know - they were organising on the big actions.]]

There was, well, I don’t know that - night watchers did literally come and do the nights so you could sleep, but there were obviously peace groups dotted around - in Reading and all sorts of places, who you know were activists and wanting to do different things and come down. And they might liaise - they might say to a group ‘oh you know, where’s a good place to go’, or whatever, or ‘where do you think they’ve got the least amount of people around, but they’d probably go off and do something on their own. I mean after the evictions, you know, we actually had our own meals-on-wheels, so those people would come down, um, and they’d come down with a van, and it’d be a different group every night for the first, I can’t remember - couple of months, maybe. And they were absolutely amazing, they would go, right ‘we’ve got meat here, we’ve got vegan here, we’ve got vegetarian here, we’ve got this organic wine to go with that, and we’ve got this, and this is for pudding,’, and they would literally come round and drive round to every single gate, and hand out food. And they were just amazing, because when the first shelters were ripped down, and the bailiffs were very, very active - they would come round and get a hose and they’d spread the hose in the fire, and you’d go ‘well, there you go - did that make you happy? Because you now, we’ll light it again in a couple of hours. so long as you’re feeling alright about it?’ And then they’d go off, and it was difficult to cook or do things, so the meals-on-wheels people - it was all done by separate groups - they’d all agree a day to go around and they would cook for that night, and they’d come down. [[And they’d be part of big actions as well?|Jade Britton And they’d be part of big actions as well?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I don’t honestly know. [[I was thinking whether outside peace groups were you know - were they organising on the big actions?|Jade Britton I was thinking whether outside peace groups were you know - they were organising on the big actions.]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I presume so. I wasn’t affiliated to any of them, so I don’t know - I was just living there. [[Did your own thing..?|Jade Britton Did your own..?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. So it was very much an individual thing, which was, I suppose a weakness, but both your strength because there was no KGB assisted plans to go in and do something - you just sort of talked around the fire and said ‘shall we go in the base tonight?’ Or ‘shall we go and do this tonight?’ ‘Oh yeah, alright then’. [[Do you think there was any infiltration of Greenham? I’ve heard all sorts of suppositions.|Jade Britton Do you think there was any infiltration of Greenham? I’ve heard all sorts of suppositions.]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I have no idea. I have no idea. I know, it’s quite funny because Elizabeth went on the Russia trip, I didn’t go on that one - I went to Canada, so other people have got to have a go sometimes going on - to places. I thought it sounded really interesting. I think they met lots of dissidents over there, and they met one family, um, and um one woman in particular who was married, and not long after they came back, I believe the woman’s husband was arrested, so Elizabeth along with some other people decided to go and protest at the Russian embassy, so they went up to the Russian embassy, and Elizabeth said ‘we demand to see the Russian..’ you know, the Russianwhatever - ambassador, and they said ‘you have to be related to somebody’, and she said ‘well I am...’ whatever her name is, ‘I am her sister’, and they said ‘well we don’t think you are madam’, and she went ‘we are all sisters under the skin’, and the guy was obviously very clever and he went ‘is Margaret Thatcher your sister?’ And she went ‘we all have to draw the line somewhere!’ (Laughs). So do you know what I mean? So Elizabeth never let a little thing like that stop her. And I can remember one time, because she’d obviously gone in the base - she’d gone in with other people, I don’t even know who they were, and Dr Katarina, who was Australian and living at the camp... she was Australian, and we were all sat around and this chap came up and he was obviously quite senior, and he went (clears throat) ‘is Dr...’ he was on the other side of the fence ‘ is Dr Katrina here, please?’ And Katrina (adopts Australian accent) ‘oh yeah, mate, I’m Katrina, what do you want?’ And he went ‘oh, Miss Abrahams has requested could you go and collect her from Yellow Gate, she’ll be released in about 25 minutes.’ And we were just in hysterics, because she’d obviously told him he had to go and arrange her transport! (Laughs). She actually had that - because she was so proper - that people would just give in and do stuff. [[Do what she asked?|Jade Britton Do what she asked?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. So it was quite hysterical really. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well all the women that I knew - in Tamworth, they were all really supportive. I did worry about telling my mum.. I had a friend called Bren, and when, and I said I’m really worried about telling my mum I’m going to do this, and she went ‘oh don’t worry - take her down the pub, it’s alright, you go off and play darts, I’ll have a chat with your mum’, and I kept looking over, I was quite worried and I thought oh, you know. I can’t remember what she said - when I first said something to her, she went ‘you can’t do that, you’re ruining my life’, and I thought ‘what?’. Anyway, so down the pub - Bren, my mum - chatting in a corner er, and I kept looking over thinking ‘she looks quite cheerful, that’s a bit weird, okay, how’s that doing?’ And in the end I went over, and my mum was all ‘oh, that’s alright then, so you’ll be going next month, that’s alright.’ And I said to Bren ‘what did you say to her?’ And she said ‘I just asked her if she wanted you to be happy or not, and that’s what you wanted to do’. So she was fine. And people were very supportive. My friend Maria - she’s in Brighton, um, at the time she was living in London, and when I gave up my place - my home, in Tamworth, and I left, um, she gave me a set of her keys, and said ‘whenever you want a break or a rest, my house is your house, you can come up to my flat whenever you want’. And other women from the camp did go as well. I don’t know if you’ve come across Bat? [[No.|Jade Britton Bat]] [[Yes!|Jade Britton Bat]]

Bat Dimion - she was um, quite involved, she’s done an awful lot since then as well. I mean I met Rebecca Johnson, um, I think at some do or other, and she could always one-up you! (Laughs). Which was, all kudos to her. She said ‘what are you doing?’ I said I’ve been training to become a medical herbalist’, and she went ‘oh’, and I said ‘ what are you doing then?’ And she went ‘oh, I’m working for the United Nations about how you diffuse, how you get more support for diffusing land mines’, and i thought of-course you are, of-course that’s what you’re doing - why would I think any different. So that’s what she was doing. It’s just funny what people moved on to when they finished at camp. [[Do you talk to your daughter very much about Greenham days?|Jade Britton Do you talk to your daughter very much about Greenham days?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I don’t know. It was a very odd existence, because you didn’t have any bills to pay, um you didn’t have gas or electricity or anything like that - it was more about, people either - when they left, they either went and lived in a city because they could network with lots of people - which is what I did, or they’d move out to remote areas like they’d go and live on Women’s Land in Wales, or they’d go to a remote Scottish Highland area. Things like that. So they either shunned city life, or they went and immersed themselves where there was lots of political activity - like I came here and you know, there was things like demonstrations about freeing Nelson Mandela and I got involved in those kinds of things, and my social life was going on a demonstration, really. Because I met everybody I knew, but I was equally supporting those causes - I’m not saying I just went for the socialising. But you knew people who were also doing it, and that’s where they would be, and you would see them. [[Did anyone get burnt out, a bit? Long long stays - difficult life?|Jade Britton Did anyone get burnt out, a bit? Long long stays - difficult life?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh yeah, there was times when you absolutely hated the place with a passion because it was just so frustrating. I mean people said when it snowed and when it was cold, you know I can remember having a plastic bender - a washing line bender - which is a string between two trees and a bit of plastic, and you’d tuck it under and put rocks on it, and you’d tie the inside with clothes pegs and things - very inventive. And I loved it - I loved waking up in the morning and a walking out in the snow and things like that. It was gorgeous, and I really took to it - I loved it. But there were times like the eviction with the woman who was being a real pain in the neck. And I can remember driving the car out with the things we’d managed to save, um, and then, er when I looked behind there was the entire - there was the police cars, there was the muncher vans following me, and I pulled off the road and I sort of turned round, and I sat there - when they came back again, obviously having done the next gate, done that one, and I sat there with my feet up on the dashboard and just waved at them, because I didn’t want them to know was actually I’d run out of petrol, and if they came and did anything, I’d have to let them take the car because I couldn’t move it - but they didn’t know that, so I just put my feet up on the dashboard and waved at them, and they just thought I was going ‘(makes noise)’. I think I sat there for like 3 hours before somebody thought ‘where’s the car, and where’s Jade got to?’ Sent somebody out to go look, and it was that point I was, and people had lost stuff because that woman was so snotty and she wouldn’t help, and there was times when you just thought ‘eeeurgghgh, I just can’t bear it’ because people were not helpful at that point. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Not that I know of. Not unless you didn’t want your hair doing in a Mohican or something, no. Not really, no. You know, everybody had their own little circle that they went to where they knew people, and sometimes you’d come back and you wouldn’t know anybody who was sitting there, do you know what I mean? And you’d go ‘oh well, there you’d go’, and you’d sit there and eventually someone you knew would turn up, or not, or whatever. But you used to get people coming down completely randomly - you get somebody coming down in a very nice looking car, and they’d get out with their heels and they’d go ‘my husband doesn’t know I’ve come down here today’, and I’m going ‘you might not want to sit too near the smoke, because you’ll smell of smoke, and that’ll be a dead give away - do you know what I mean?’ And they’d come down and just talk to you, or you’d get people from Bulgaria turning up with medals, do you know what I mean - it was just, or you’d get a reporter, and you’d be washing the cups up and this reporter would ‘because um, um, the convoy went out last night, and you need to talk to me’, and I’d go ‘I’m washing up at the moment’, and they went ‘you don’t understand, this is for your benefit - you have to talk to us,’ and I’d go ‘and where you yesterday? And where were you the day before that, and where are you going to be tomorrow? You know, my need to do things is not your need..’. ‘You want to get this message’. I said ‘why, why do I want to get this message? People are coming anyway, people talk to me anyway, I don’t need you’, ‘you need us, you need us’, ‘no - what I need to do is do the washing up - go somewhere else, maybe you’ll find somebody else who actually wants to talk to you’. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well the first time the convoy went out, I wasn’t there, and it was women at Blue Gate, but what I do know is that they spoke to a woman reporter who had come down and spent quite a bit of time there, and they had grown to trust her, and when she turned up and said ‘will you tell me what happened?’ Um, they trusted her and they talked to her. And when they read the papers the next day - I read them too, and I can remember that one of the, the article in questions said something like ‘and this woman admitted that they were all running around like headless chickens because they didn’t know what to do, and they were panicked and flapping’, which was complete - nobody ever said that, it never happened. Anyway this woman turned up again after a little bit, and they said ‘the rubbish that you wrote which was nothing we said to you, and you’re showing your face’, and she said ‘well it wasn’t my choice, it was an editorial thing, um and I came down partly to tell yo that that wasn’t the real - that wasn’t what I wrote, and I’m sorry it got printed like that’. But people learn to be very wary of newspaper reporters, because they will lie in their teeth to get a story, or to make it sound better, but nobody ever said ‘oh yes, we all felt like headless chickens’ - it was completely invented, so there was obviously an element of distrust, and you bore that in mind when you talked to anybody. Um.. [[Within the media?|Jade Britton Within the media?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, you know - have you seen the "Carry Greenham Home" video? [[Yes|Jade Britton CGH]] [[No|Jade Britton CGH]]

Yeah, there’s the thing where somebody is doing cartwheels, and this woman says ‘can you stop, we’re trying to do’, and it’s like yeah, well where were you yesterday? It’s that kind of thing, you know - we don’t actually need you, we’re onto going to pander to that. We’re not media superstars and we don’t want our minute of fame for the day - this is about a bigger issue. And when they were treated as if we weren’t interested, the press kind of just went - this guy nearly imploded when I said ‘I’d rather do the washing up than talk to you, to be honest. Maybe you can find somebody else who would like to talk to you, but I certainly can’t be bothered’. And he was like ‘oh my goodness, because I’m so important because I’m going to get your message out’, and I was like ‘I don’t need you to get the message out’. People will - what I used to say was, and it was true because anybody who went there was a Greenham woman, and maybe they didn’t live at the camp, but it didn’t matter, because if they went away and talked to one other person, and spread the idea, other people would come, so it’s kind of like ‘if you build it, they will come’ sort of thing. And that’s how it always worked, and it worked better for being like that. It’s funny because when you were sitting around the campfire, and people would come, and visitors would come, and they’d stay for a weekend and they might come down for a week, and they’d bring their kids or whatever, and sometimes the last thing we would talk about would be the nuclear missiles - we’d talk about everything: battered women’s refuges, or all kinds of things to do with women’s rights, or you know, um, working conditions - a million other things, you know, and not necessarily that at all. It was the biggest um, collective sort of exchange of information that I think has ever happened. Do you know what I mean? Because it was so complete - anybody could come down and have that conversation, and if you didn’t have that conversation with one person because that wasn’t their thing and they didn’t want to talk to you, go and find somebody else who will talk to you, and there was plenty of people that would - do you know what I mean? And that was the hugest thing about it, and of-course the nuclear stuff as well, but that was a small part of it, and sometimes it wasn’t the most important part at that time. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

We went to see the um, there was an exhibition. I took her there after the camps had closed - I know the Yellow Gate thing was still going a little bit, but when she was a baby I drove there, I can’t remember if the photos of I’ve got - but I’ve no idea where they are, and I had a picture of me taken back at where Violet Gate was - when she was a little toddler, so um, but um, yeah. We went to - there was, at the Imperial War Museum they had a Against the... No to War thing, and they had a whole, and we went to that - the two of us together. [[How old was she then?|Jade Britton How old was she then?]] [[Was she impressed?|Jade Britton Was she impressed?]] [[What do you think Greenham gave you, really, in how you lived your life after? And what you’re handing on to your daughter?|Jade Britton What do you think it gave you, really, in how you lived your life after Greenham? And what you’re handing on to your daughter?]]

Oh she was, it was a couple - a year and a half ago or something, so we went to see that together and she was listening to some of the audio tape things with some of the women, and she was looking at the picture of the telephone tree and you know, all of those things. [[Was she impressed?|Jade Britton Was she impressed?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, I think so. And she went out in New York - ‘Hands off our rights’, and all the rest of it with some her friends, and did all of that, so, she’s, she’s not a big activist I would say, but she’s certainly - they were talking about electing this woman senator who is now the head of education (snorts) in America, and they were - she sent me a photograph - they were all writing letters to try and block her, you know, because she was so awful. I mean she still got the post, but you know. But I was proud of Megan, because I think they’ve got different battles these days - climate change and all that. So I think there are different battles to be fought, I think. And some of them are still the same, the nuclear things are still there, but if we don’t destroy the planet ourselves, the nuclear weapons will still sit there presumably. So, you know. [[Do you fear climate change more than nuclear holocaust?|Jade Britton Do you fear climate change more than nuclear holocaust?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I just think it’s different times, I mean. [[All those nuclear weapons are still there in vast quantities.|Jade Britton All those nuclear weapons are still there in vast quantities.]] [[And .....|Jade Britton And .....]]

Oh yeah. [[And .....|Jade Britton And .....]] [[Seems to be an urge for destruction.|Jade Britton Seems to be an urge for destruction.]]

(Inaudible) and Trump are still playing their pat-a-cake thing, sort of seeing whose got the biggest toys - it’s just ridiculous, but we have other things facing us now that you know, they haven’t used them this long, so perhaps they’ll just sit there being dormant, and in the meantime we’re wrecking the planet, so... [[Seems to be an urge for destruction.|Jade Britton Seems to be an urge for destruction.]]

Yeah. Which is crazy, but hopefully, you know, that’s what the next generation will be fighting for, I’ve no doubt, and maybe with that there’ll come some wisdom, but yeah - I don’t think consensus is the right you know - like you said about anarchism, but anarchy, as I understood it - as people talked about it - certainly Greenham ran on a system of anarchy - a small group of people would do something that they felt was their - what they could do - to counter what was being done in spite of the fact that they had never consented to any of this. So there’s a certain amount of anarchy that says well, the current electoral system doesn’t work. [[It is in-fact broken, like a lot of things before that.|Jade Britton It is in-fact broken, like a lot of things before that.]] [[Are you involved in any activism of any sort now?|Jade Britton Are you involved in any activism of any sort now?]]

Don’t go down that road! [[Are you involved in any activism of any sort now?|Jade Britton Are you involved in any activism of any sort now?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Not so much, but maybe when I retire I will be. Unfortunately, you know my job (Teaching 13 year-olds English) doesn’t allow me an awful lot of time to do anything. But I talk to women who are um, very involved still - I go to meetings with women who are activists in different areas, um, against prostitution and things like that. I think I’ve still got a political brain that wants to do things, and you know - I did an assembly that was all about the vote and you know, what people fought for - and especially women, and things like that. So I think we can learn things from the way people have done it, but I’m not so sure the current system is working at all, really. [[What did Greenham give you, that you can use in the classroom?|Jade Britton What did Greenham give you, that you can use in the classroom?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

(Laughs). Oh, resilience, absolutely resilience. [[Who is more scary - the soldiers and the police or the 13 year olds?|Jade Britton Who is more scary - the soldiers and the police or the 13 year olds?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh, probably the 13year olds! (Laughs). But not so much these days, I mean I think, I think when you get used to teaching it’s more of a partnership, really. The kids and you, you know, and if they trust you, and they will understand, but unfortunately I feel like - I mean it’s another story talking about the education, you know it’s because they’ve changed things, and they’ve made it so much harder, there’s less opportunity for the kids to explore their own identities and what what’s happening - it’s all exam, exam exam, it’s kind of scary that it is the case. [[Are any of these kids aware of your past at Greenham?|Jade Britton Are any of these kids aware?]] [[Why do you think it’s important for people to remember Greenham now - especially that generation?|Jade Britton So why do you think it’s important for people to remember Greenham now - especially that generation?]]

No. I can remember one of the staff who teaches R.S. asked me to come along one time, and they were talking about the nuclear thing and pacifism, and asked me to go along to a lesson and talk to them about the protests and Greenham common, and that was a few years ago. But mostly these days I think they don’t even know what it was - they’re not even aware of it. [[Why do you think it’s important for people to remember Greenham now - especially that generation?|Jade Britton So why do you think it’s important for people to remember Greenham now - especially that generation?]]

Well I think mainly because it shows you - it’s like the kid who came out against climate change, and is doing the Friday strikes. You know, because if you show that ordinary people can have a say, and can get their voices heard, you know it’s never been um, you know, what was the - was it a John Lennon song ‘as soon as you’re born they make you feel small by giving you no time instead of it all’, and it’s kind of saying you know, never think of yourself as too small and unimportant to have a view, and to have a belief in something. And whatever you choose to go for, you know - like I said at Greenham it was talk to one other person, you could start a whole movement, you know, and that’s the important thing. If you say ‘you can only do it if you join this party or this party’, and some people choose to do that, but not everybody can, and not everyday wants to. But simply having the strength of - the passion - the feeling that you need to right injustice is something that I think that we don’t harness as much any more, and I think the youth will surprise us, because I think it will rise up again like it always does. And ordinary people will get their voices heard. Look at Malala, and she was just one girl, so you know, when you look at it - it’s not been whole movements, it’s not been a political party that has done something. It’s been, you know - Nelson Mandela being, or um, you know er, anybody who does anything or speaks out, or Malala - I went to see her speak at, um at um, Southbank, when she came one time, and it was inspiring. My daughter got the book and lent me that, so I think you take inspiration from others that you think ‘actually, she’s a girl, she’s not that old, she’s a bit like me, and she’s saying things - never forget that you have a voice’. I think it’s important - saying about Greenham is important because it shows you that actually it didn’t need the press, and it didn’t need lots of other things, because what the press said wasn’t necessarily true, but you can talk to other people, and even talking to one other person can change somebody’s view. And you know if you do that, all of a sudden you’re a movement. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah! [[What impact, if any, do you think Greenham had on feminism?|Jade Britton What impact, if any, do you think Greenham had on feminism?]] [[What year did you go to Greenham?|Jade Britton What year was this?]]

I think it was.. one of the main things for me was that it was this huge discussion place where you could talk about anything under the sun, and bring different perspectives, and people could exchange their views. And that was hugely valuable. I mean there is this talk about getting away from this democratic model where you vote for one person who has to belong to a party organisation in order to get elected, and they’ve talked about this thing where you get different people from different walks of life - you give them a year out, and you give them all the exerts they need, and then they work their way to a conclusion. Wouldn’t that be a better model? Because this one isn’t working, and you know - it hasn’t done for some time, and people are frustrated with it, and it seems to me that you know, just to get ordinary people who have got a voice, and who can do it in an environment where they’re given access to those details, you know the public aren’t stupid - they just don’t have the background of knowledge - they’re not allowed access to it because what did they say ‘for the people, by the people, for god’s sake don’t tell the people’. There we go! (Laughs). [[Which gate were you staying at, at Greenham?|Jade Britton And which gate were you staying at?]] [[What year did you go to Greenham?|Jade Britton What year was this?]]

You know, I (laughs), it’s funny, when I stayed on the Women’s Herb Farm on Vancouver Island, and I came back wanting to know about medicines - orthodox medicines and planet medicines, and I also think there’s a lot of mystique around - they were saying that now there’s a lot of problems with drugs against bacteria, so those sorts of things are not working, so if we’re not very careful - and it’s not profitable for people to come up with new anti-bacteria drugs, and where are we going to go with that? And I can only think back to the plants, because we’re going to have to stop being so industrialized about everything - not everything is about having a profit, and it’s more about - and so I think my great love was always the plants, and then I think my other thing was I always wanted to teach, and I did have an English degree, and then I wanted to go back, and I wanted to just - I don’t know, to help some of the younger generation. I don’t think I have much of a voice at school - obviously I know you have to have a certain amount of direction towards the end result, which is a piece of paper, but at the same time, I think school should challenge young people to think. So that was the other thing that I came out with... [[Of Greenham?|Jade Britton Of Greenham?]] [[And Greenham‘s legacy to the world, what do you think that is?|Jade Britton And Greenham‘s legacy to the world, what do you think that is?]]

Yeah, so a classroom is a forum for that - I don’t push my own agendas, but I do ask them for what they think, which I think, a new thing quite a lot of teachers do try and do that as far as they can, but English is is the great leveler, because you can talk about every issue under the sun. I mean we’re not allowed now to do things like To Kill A Mockingbird as a thing for GCSE, or Of Mice and Men, which was a microcosm of society because it talked about all the disadvantaged people that there were. So you do them in Key Stage 3, and you still get to ask those questions, and say to people ‘what do you think?’. And when you read something like To Kill A Mockingbird, or Of Mice and Men, er and you read out the words - some racist words that are in the book, and I did have one kid to or three weeks ago say ‘Miss, you can’t say that, that’s racist’, and I said yes, but what would you rather - would you rather we erased all those words from the book and pretended it hadn’t happened, or do I read it out and you say ‘Miss, I am shocked at that’ because that’s the reaction I want from you - I want you to say ‘I don’t like that Miss, it sounds wrong’ - you’re right to feel like that, but if I don’t do it like that, and we pretended - is there going to be people that deny who say ‘well there’s no words like that in the book - you’re making it up, it’s not real. So when you get that, you understand what it must have been like. Because we can’t - that was so many years ago, but we need to know about this stuff. I teach about Anne Frank and the holocaust, I teach Of Mice and Men, I teach To Kill A Mockingbird - if we’ve got the time, um, Maya Angelou’s book I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, and we say you know there’s lots of things in that that helps us to understand why we need to be a diverse society that is inclusive or everybody, and I say whether it’s gay people or black people or Muslim people or whatever, it doesn’t matter. I think education should be the great leveler (laughs), and access to health things - I suppose that’s what came out of it was my two passions to help, to foster that questioning, or to foster that way of thinking about stuff. So when you teach a text you teach them to question and to say that, and you don’t white wash the words out of it because they need to hear this is what it was like - we don’t want this to happen again - this is why you hear it, so you know what that feels like, and you can say ‘I’m glad you said it was wrong, because it is, but we’ll read the book anyway, and then you’ll see why it was wrong’. [[And thinking about Greenham, they learn a lot about the Suffragettes now at school, don’t they?|Jade Britton And thinking about Greenham, they learn a lot about the Suffragettes now at school, don’t they?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Some, some. Not masses. I don’t know what they do in History. I’m English, but as I say - I did an assembly - whole school assembly about the Suffragettes and we looked at the woman who ran in front of the horse, and I don’t know if you know, but Clare Balding did an investigation into the sash that she was trying to pin on, and so I showed that extract, and I showed an extract from the film Suffragettes as well, and to be quite honest you could have heard a pin drop - they were all like ‘oh my god’, and it wasn’t that long ago, and so I ended up by saying ‘you need to register to vote now, because if you don’t register to vote you won’t have a vote, and if you don’t vote - you don’t show up, your voice will not be heard’. Because you’ve got to work with the system you’ve got, do you know what I mean? [[Do you think you’ll do a Greenham assembly?|Jade Britton Do you think you’ll do a Greenham assembly?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think it’s too far remote,I mean I could do - but I think it’s too far remote from there...and I don’t think the nuclear issue is at the forefront of what they’re - I think climate change is more what they’re... [[Except it is still there, and it is still dangerous.|Jade Britton Except it is still there, and it is still dangerous.]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It is - of-course, but you can’t, ‘you’ve got to look at this because it’s important’ - everybody finds their own road to what they feel about it, do you know what I mean? So who knows. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, but there’s still a couple of women living there. [[Even now?|Jade Britton Even now?]] [[Oh I didn’t know that..|Jade Britton Oh I didn’t know that..]]

Yeah, I think Katrina. [[Oh I didn’t know that..|Jade Britton Oh I didn’t know that..]] [[How long were you there for, roughly?|Jade Britton I’ve forgotten how long you said you were there for, roughly?]]

..a little while ago she had a, I think it was her - she was filmed, you know there was a clip or something on the anniversary, and I think she had a caravan there and I think she was still there. It’s worth checking out. I mean I haven’t been back for a long time, so I don’t know. [[How long were you there for, roughly?|Jade Britton I’ve forgotten how long you said you were there for, roughly?]] [[How did you feel when you went back?|Jade Britton How did you feel when you went back? Was it ...]]

It was kind of odd, because it was a hive of - I mean some days - you never knew, some days it would be deserted, and some days it would be thronging with people, and some days it would be people you knew, and some days like I said - you’d go back, if you’d been away for a weekend or something, you’d go back and there wouldn’t be anybody there. So um, yeah. [[Did you feel nostalgic for those days?|Jade Britton Did you feel nostalgic for those days?]] [[How long were you there for, roughly?|Jade Britton I’ve forgotten how long you said you were there for, roughly?]]

Yeah, yeah, I think so (laughs). I mean I’m still in touch with some people - Rowan I’m still in touch with, um, but um and I thinks she’s in touch with other people like Veronica and Jane, and a few people um, I think Katrina went back to Australia - eventually. [[A different Katrina?|Jade Britton That’s Dr Katrina?]] [[How long were you there for, roughly?|Jade Britton I’ve forgotten how long you said you were there for, roughly?]]

Dr Katrina. Yeah, Dr Katrina went back to Australia. So people dispersed and did their own things, but when it’s time for you to go, it’s time for you to go. Um, and there was never any - ‘well you should have been here’ or anything like that. People just decided to go when they decided to go, do you know what I mean and it was like ‘if you don’t want to be here, then you shouldn’t have to be here - it’s fine!’. [[How long were you there for, roughly?|Jade Britton I’ve forgotten how long you said you were there for, roughly?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well I went for about 6...in the end, on and off it was about 2 years. [[A long time. And then you started coming and leaving and coming back, or was it...?|Jade Britton A long time. And then you started coming and leaving and coming back, or was it ...]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, I think in the end I just decided I wanted to do something different - like you do. I wanted to go and learn about herbs. I came back to London and um looked into, um, er, I think I went to the college of Phytotherapy, which originally was in um Tunbridge Wells, so I signed up to do that. [[Very Greenham!|Jade Britton Very Greenham!]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah! Yes! Sort of. But I mean I loved that and um, certainly the women that you know, in Vancouver Island - I was more and more, I mean I’ve got loads of herbal books up there, so um, I loved that and I met lots of people that were very into that, and learn to be wary of having too many antibiotics and things. You know. I had a really good GP - I lived in Lewisham at one point, and I had a really nice GP, and she and I had an agreement she said ‘I get that you’re a herbalist,’ she said ‘but if I tell you to take an antibiotic, you’ll take it, right?’ And I went ‘yep’, and the time I did need it she went ‘you’re having the antibiotic’, and I went ‘yep right, that’s good’, because ... [[That’s how it should work - together.|Jade Britton That’s how it should work - together.]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, yeah. But it’s funny because I think I applied for housing at that time, and I remember going along to the housing office and they wanted to fill in all the forms about where I’d been living, and they said ‘what was your previous residence?’ And I said ‘an orange plastic bag’, and he was like ‘what?’! (Laughs). ‘It was an orange plastic bag - I had a GoreTex as well, but it was an orange plastic bag over it.’ ‘Okay’. So it was a bit odd, it’s quite funny because a lot of people signed on, and they’d come along and they’d interview you literally sitting on the slope from the um, the dole office, and they’d come along and they’d interview you, and word got out because if you had a bender, they classed it as being sort of.., and you got less money, but if you had a tent you were classed as having a dwelling, and therefore you got more money! (Laughs). Because the benders were far more stable, but if you had a tent that was like you could put it up and stay in it - it was very odd (laughs). [[Who made up that slender difference?|Jade Britton Who made up that slender difference?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Who knows! But they had their little clipboard, and it was like ‘do you have a bender or a tent’? (Laughs). Ridiculous conversation! They did have a sanitary inspector who came along at one point, and they were going ‘where do you wash? Where do you...’ (whispers) ’over there, behind the bushes’,and they were like (gasps). But actually we were very meticulously clean about it - no colored toilet paper, because that takes years to break down - Green Gate would have had a hissy fit about it if we’d used anything else but white paper - do you know what I mean? So people were more aware of the ecological things about it as well, so it’s quite funny. But you either laughed or you cried there - sometimes it was just hysterical, and sometimes it was like ‘oh god, I can’t take this any longer’. [[Yes, the cold in winter must have been pretty difficult?|Jade Britton Yes, the cold in winter must have been pretty difficult?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh no, no, that wasn’t a problem at all. No, no. The rain! The rain was the most...yeah, because if it rained for days on end, because I think it was Lady Olga Maitland who - she wrote the book, and we sat around and we read extracts - I don’t think I ever met her - I might have done, but I can’t remember now. Um and we were reading extracts - we used to read around the fire sometimes, we liked The Moomins - we read the Moomin books and things like that, and we were reading it and they were saying - actually we were a bit pissed with her, because she said things like ‘and they were sitting there on this dismal slope, and they had this bowl - this pot of rice - which was the only thing to eat, and they occasionally they’d throw in a pimento as a bit of variety to the plain rice’, and I thought we had some amazing meals - how dare you? I mean we know she meant it well, and maybe that night all they did have was rice with a pimento, but it was like oh my god, nobody will ever come here because they’ll think we’re just living such a terrible life, and actually a lot of the time it was fun, and we ate really well, and you know, people put a lot of love and care into the food - although there was a lot of in-fighting about the meat - that’s why I lived at Violet Gate. [[So you could eat meat?|Jade Britton So you could eat meat?]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Not necessarily so I could eat meat, because I didn’t really care, but um, it’s because - you know, it as so embracing of all lifestyles that I felt I fitted in there - where you could be virtually anything, and that’s fine at Violet Gate. I think Rebecca Johnson came round one night, because she was mainly at Yellow Gate, and she came round and she said (whispers) ‘I hear for Christmas Day you’ve got fish - can I come for Christmas dinner, because they won’t let me eat anything like that at Yellow’, and we said ‘yeah, yeah, of-course’ (laughs). But it was the weirdest thing, because you’d get people come and sometimes they’d give you like satsumas, and you think god, I’ve had fifteen satsumas today, but I haven’t had anything else to eat - I wish somebody would come up - oh you got the weirdest things, because people would turn up, and I can remember a car pulling up once and they said (shouts) ‘what do you need?’, and I was siting with Rowan, and went ‘oh, can I have a bottle of whiskey and an apple pie with an R for Rowan on it?’ She was just joking, and a week later same car pulled up ‘is there a Rowan here? We’ve got a bottle of whiskey and an apple pie’ (laughs). So it was just like... [[Lovely!|Jade Britton Lovely!!]] [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, but people would come up ‘oh do you need some wood?’ You’d never see them again - or sometimes you would, do you know what I mean? [[Yeah|Jade Britton wood]] [[I hadn’t thought about where the wood came from before. You’d need logs delivered?|Jade Britton I hadn’t thought about where the wood came from before. You’d need log delivered?]]

And it was just like people would just come up and say ‘no, no, this is what - it’s not much but I can give you that, so this is to help the whole thing’. And people were incredibly generous, you know, so that was - it was a bizarre existence, because you think my god, we’re running out of wood, and I’d say to Annie or Judy ‘what’s going to happen next?’ - when I was first going at Indigo, and um they’d go ‘ah something’ll turn up. Sure enough, somebody would drive along and go ‘anybody need any wood?’ And you’d go ‘oh yeah, we could do with a load, or no we don’t, but I think Violet Gate might need some’. And you know, that would be fine. [[I hadn’t thought about where the wood came from before. You’d need logs delivered?|Jade Britton I hadn’t thought about where the wood came from before. You’d need log delivered?]]

Well we used to get pallets, pallets would, and things like everybody - lots of people - I remember having a fireman’s jacket - they were great because they were really weather-y proof and they were wonderful. So people like firemen would support you, I mean I can remember getting on a bus somewhere - completely random in the Midlands, and the guy looked at me - the bus driver - and he said ‘where are you from?’ And I went ‘oh, Greenham’, and he went ‘you’re not paying on my bus - on you go - you’re not paying a fare on my bus, you go and sit down love’. And you know the most random people would do their little bit of solidarity, you know - it was just heart warming, so you had all those things. And occasionally you’d get the mad woman who’d go ‘oh, I want to know where the real Greenham women are - at Yellow Gate where the cameras are’, and you’d just think ‘go on, you just keep going, love’ (laughs). So, it just depended. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Network - talk to one person and grow it from there. Don’t rely on the politicians to do it for you, because they’re so tied up they don’t know what the hell they’re doing, and it’s never been truer than now, and people can see it - you know. But, but talk to people who share your ideas, and then share them some more. I think it’s got to come back to that in the end. I think we’re entering a very different era, because I don’t think - you know I, you know, I think things are broken, and I think they’re broken universally - I don’t think it’s just an isolated thing, I think we’ve gone as far as we can in some directions, and we’ve got to find a different way of working - whether it’s consensus and somebody sneaking off to cut the fence (laughs), just to move it along, or whatever. But we’ve got to change how we listen to people, and maybe it starts with the younger people - because they’re going, you know, they’re going to be dealing with it all - it’s got to be what they feel passionate about and what they feel drives them, so you know - you can’t tell somebody to get involved in a cause, they have to feel it for themselves and to, you know to embrace it on their own - they’ll come to it, but if you ask them, teach them to question things, eventually they’ll question something, and then they’ll think well, I’m sorry but that’s not right - and then they’ll move on from there, so everybody will find their own path, I think - hopefully. [[Thank Jade Britton, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

What would you like to ask Lorna Richardson? [[What took you to Greenham? How come you went in the first place?|Lorna Richardson what took you there? How come you went in the first place?]] [[What impact did going to Greenham have on your life?|Lorna Richardson What impact did going to Greenham have on your life?]] [[What is a Greenham Woman?|Lorna Richardson What is a Greenham Woman?]]

I had an aunt, who was very political, she was an MP. But she was from a she, she was a feminist I, I, I grew up in what is now known as a chaotic household. [[Right|Lorna Richardson Right]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Right]]

And this aunt was the steady point in my life. Everything I am, every any good thing I have ever done is because I had her in my life as a child. The first political march I ever went on was a pro choice march, because she was part of that whole 70s, I mean, she was a leading light in the 70s pro-choice movement. And one of the, I mean, I, you know, she used to take, I'm the youngest of four, she used to take me and we all four of us, look back on her as this sort of sanctuary this sort of, and it wasn't I mean, my mum was lovely, but chaotic household, my dad was an arse, chaotic household, whatever. And all of which sounds like a side thing. But actually the whole thing. It's not an accident, the path my life took, when you're talking about control, and violence, and all kinds of things. So anyway, my aunt took each of us, for weekends at these. And she used to take me and my middle sister together, because we, me and my middle sister went round as a pair. And when I was 11, she took us to see The China Syndrome, which is a film with a very young Michael Douglas, who actually appears in this story later, and Jane Fonda and Jack Lemmon and it's actually nothing to do with nuclear weapons, it's to do with nuclear power. It's it's a sort of fictionalized account of Three Mile Island. And on the way home, she told us all about Three Mile Island and fa la la la la. And it was this. I mean, she took us to movies all the time that was, and she didn't have children of her own. So she took us to sort of, you know, movies, that you wouldn't necessarily think to take a child to. Which was great, absolutely great. And she was, she had been very active in the anti nuclear movement. She'd been on the early Aldermaston marches and all the rest of it. And she was, so I got all that stuff from her. And I mean, oh, she taught me so many things. And she actually the other thing she taught me is that you don't have to make excuses for violence. And that you can... This, I did not expect to be talking about this, but actually, I think it's important. She loved my dad, my dad was her brother. She never once made excuses for him. She never once made excuses for him. Even though she loved him. She was always on our side, even though she loved him. She was always outspoken in her political life. And she had a very active public political life as well as a private life. And she was a model to me of political and personal integrity. And I think, and I haven't, it's really weird these this kind of thing. I, I think I thought about it often in my life. I'm not sure I've ever connected it in that way that I had not expected to be talking about my aunt when I sat down with you. But anyway, so she's so she's.. [[She sounds great..|Lorna Richardson She sounds great]] [[Listen quietly|Lorna Richardson She sounds great]]

She was she was just this. In fact, somebody has written a book about her.. Um, and so she, she was this sort of figure in my life and I'd learned about stuff from her. And then I had a couple of friends at school they were in the year above me and me and my friend, who were in the same year. We were involved in sort of the local CND I mean, I, you know, sort of like from 14/15 and, you know, we started up a debating club at school and it was just a secondary modern in Kingston, actually it was in New Malden, but, and one of these two other women. It was me, Wendy, Kerry and Anita, and I'm still in touch with Anita though I've lost touch with Wendy and Kerry and Kerry and Anita had been to Greenham. And we done I mean, it was the 80s we were teenagers. We'd done like dorky street theatre about nuclear weapons. I mean, I look back and I think, Oh dear. But it was you know, props - we were we were giving it a go. And, oh blimey, and, like, in fact, my first experience of quakerism was Kingston Quaker meeting house, which has since been knocked down and replaced with a Primark. And they've got an in environmentally fantastic building elsewhere in Kingston, which they rebuilt. And they used to have a little yard outside and they'd have a Saturday store every Saturday with Kingston Peace Council leaflets and all the rest of it. And I got, I learnt about Greenham that way. [[Ah!|Lorna Richardson Ah!]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Ah!]]

And Kerry and Anita, I think had been once and it hadn't been going very long. And then because it started in 81. And then there was this action in 82. So it was September 81. And then there was this action, and it was sort of spring, spring, what was it called can't remember what it was called, like, who knows? And we were like, let's go up and I was 16. And the four of us or, was it the four of us? I can't even, no, it was the three of us, I think Kerry was already there, hitched up. So it was my first experience of hitching. And we got to Greenham. And it was a massive, massive gathering at green gate. And it was, it was it was a lot of sort of wandering around, and it was, I don't have very clear memories of it. Um apart from... We, again, this sounds like a digression, but it's not is that one of the other things that had been happening in my life at that time was I had, I was working up to a final eating disorder. And then I read Jemaine Greer, Female Eunuch, and then I went to Greenham. And I thought, "Fuck this!" And I keep on, like again, hadn't expected to mention that in that conversation with you. But whenever I think of this swerve that I took, and it doesn't mean I don't, I haven't had lifelong issues with food, as practically every woman you stop in the street will tell you. But whenever I think I coz I always think I mean, you know, whenever I think of you know, reading The Female Eunuch saved me from a particular sort of path going down, I have this very particular memory, of standing in line for a food cart at green gate. At Greenham, that first visit, thinking, actually, it's alright for me to have lunch, you know? And it was, it sounds. I don't know if all the, I'm sure. I wonder if half your interviews are like this, where you suddenly think, hang on! There are connections to be made here! And so anyway, so that that was a thing. And so that was in, I don't know, March or something. I think. I can't remember the date. And then there was a blockade of the base that same year, and we went down. And again, it was me and when we went for the day, I don't think she stayed over. I can't remember. It's not very long time ago now. But I did stay overnight. So there was a sort of demonstration one day and then a blockade the next. And we slept over at a gate called turquoise, which is.. [[What was that like?|Lorna Richardson What was that like?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson OK]]

Well turquoise was very quiet. It's very, it very rarely had a camp at it at all. [[OK|Lorna Richardson OK]] [[What was the day to day life of being someone living at the Greenham Common Peace Camp like?|Lorna Richardson What was the day to day life of being someone living at the Greenham Common Peace Camp like?]]

I presume you've been to the location? [[Yes, I have!|Lorna Richardson Yes. Just quite recently, actually.]] [[No, I haven't|Lorna Richardson Yes. Just quite recently, actually.]]

Right. And it's quite interesting. Having known the base so well. Now, I can walk the perimeter as it used to be. But it's not always clear if you're, if you didn't know it before, for things and to be honest, even if you did, like there was blue gate. And then if you go right into the woods, there's a there was another set of gates, which they never used. I'll come on to that later - turquoise gate. And then if you went a bit further into the woods, there was a sort of bit where the fence went into a point pointing in towards the base, and emerald gate, which wasn't a gate at all was there because it was right opposite the silos. And so turquoise was sort of halfway between blue and emerald. Um I didn't take part in the blockade, and then I came home and then so I'd, I was 16 then, I hit 17. I had the my first visit to Greenham I was still living at home. As soon as I hit 16 I'd left home. [[Right.|Lorna Richardson Right.]] [[Can you tell me anything about the songs at Greenham?|Can you tell me anything about the songs at Greenham?]]

And I was a lodger, in a, in a the house of somebody I used to babysit for which was great. And I'd gone to sixth form college and I was doing my A-Levels. And it was the obvious thing in the world to think, fuck this, I'm going to live at Greenham, so I did. And I, I sort of started spending more and more time there. And I thought, actually, no, well at no, the thing that triggered it, the thing that sort of triggered me, I came to a crunch point, I'd been arrested a bunch of times. And I was 17. And, and it was time for my A-Level exams, and I wasn't sure if I was gonna go to prison. And the thing is, I didn't have very much money, as you might imagine. And if I put in for my exams, and I didn't show up to them, I would be charged for them. So, and as it turned out, I didn't go to prison on that occasion. But I thought, let's, let's just wrap this up. So I finished my course, I finished my other course, I withdrew from the exams, so I wouldn't be liable for the money. And I just packed myself up and went to Greenham full time. [[Were you at a particular gate?|Lorna Richardson Were you at a particular gate?]] [[What sort of things were you in Prison for?|lorna Richardson What sort of things were you in prison for?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well that I started off, I mean, the my very first visit, I was at green gate, but that it was it was a gathering there. There was a massive clearing there. Um, I started off at yellow gate for quite a while. And the funny thing is at Greenham, I mean this is how I got, because I mean, I mean, this was fairly early on. But it had had enough. I mean, there's a certain amount. I mean, there was fellowship, but there wasn't, which I wouldn't, it's not what I would have used at the time. But there's also an amount of just sort of getting on with it. And and some people were really friendly, some people didn't speak at all. I mean, one of the reasons I got to know Rebecca is because, you know, she invited me on an action. And it was like, fine, whatever which was, that was another thing. That was good. And then as I got to know, other women, we set up a gate at emerald gate, so we could watch the silos. [[Ah ok.|Lorna Richardson Ah ok.]] [[What were your relations like with the soldiers and police at the base?|Lorna Richardson What were your relations like with the soldiers and police at the base?]]

And that was with Jane and a woman who was a huge influence on both me and Jane, who died a couple years ago called Hazel. And I mean, Hazel was in her 80s when she died. She's she's a big chunk older than me and Jane. And there's another woman called Penny. And so, was that was that an emerald? Yeah, that was an emerald. And there was another woman called Hero who's since died. And then I spent time when we shut down emerald, I spent time at blue gate, because I'd always had, you know, a soft spot the size of the Albert Hall for blue gate, because blue gate got the worst of it. Blue gate, um, were nearest Newbury. So when the evictions happened, and I'm sure you've heard all about the evictions, the council trucks that come up from Newbury, up Bury's Bank Road, they would have evict blue gate who had no notice. And somebody from Blue gate would jump into a vehicle and do the rounds warning everybody. So everybody got a five minute start. And then the council trucks would evict blue gate again before they went home. [[Oh god!|Lorna Richardson Oh god!]] [[Keep listening quietly.. |Lorna Richardson Oh god!]]

And blue gate tended to be younger and working class. And not the people that you know, journalists would come and an interview, and all the rest of it and and I thought well, it's time for me to stop admiring blue gate from afar, I'll actually pitch in. And I had a lovely, lovely time at blue gate, and it was fantastic. And then I think me and some blue gaters possibly. And some red gaters and we we had we were at, what was it, violet? Oh actually me, Jane and Hazel. There was one point when we set up a gate between emerald gate, no, we've done between green gate and yellow gate called jade gate. And that this was in the era when the convoy was coming out because it was, um, it wasn't a gate at all. It was in the woods. But it was directly opposite the vehicle compound. [[Oh brilliant, so you could see when they were gonna move?|Lorna Richardson Oh brilliant, so you could see when they were gonna move?]] [[How long did you live actually live there for then?|Lorna Richardson Yeah! How long did you live actually live there for then?]]

So you could see everything. And so I have done the rounds somewhat. [[Yeah! How long did you live actually live there for then?|Lorna Richardson Yeah! How long did you live actually live there for then?]] [[Could you explain why you think it's important, if you do, that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations?|Lorna Richardson could you explain why you think it's important, if you do, that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations?]]

It's a bit how long is a piece of string, because I would say that the answer I'll give you applies to when I did not have anywhere else. [[Right.|Lorna Richardson Right3]] [[Listen quietly|Lorna Richardson Right3]]

I tend, I visited for a while, before I gave up any other location. After I left, I did not go back for a while. I didn't go back to visit. And I think I needed a sort of a space and all that. But but also, I mean, the reason I left is because the INF Treaty had happened. And I felt that my particular job there, had finished. So I didn't feel the impulse to go back, I mean we had carried on at Aldermaston. I so the answer I usually give is four years. [[It's a good long time. But you visited before and it sounds like you might have visited after.|Lorna Richardson It's a good long time. But you visited before and it sounds like you might have visited after.]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

But. Yeah, I mean, I was how old, I'm terrible with dates, absolutely terrible. But, I think I was on because I I'd been arrested before I moved there full time, because that was one of the impetuses and it was quite though, I get them all muddled up. Um, and the way it worked, is, it was quite a long time before you necessarily go to court. They didn't, they didn't really speed it up much. And there was a period of about seven years when I was on bail for something or other more or less continuously, sort of overlapping. [[What sort of things were you in Prison for?|lorna Richardson What sort of things were you in prison for?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, funnily enough, because I've just I'm about to get my DBS certificate. So I'm 53 and it's chasing me years after. So you know, like I've told my line manager and I've told my premises committee and I've told the the, you know that, I can't remember what's on it, quite frankly, because you're not in a position to keep records? But I would say most of them are criminal damage. [[What would you have done to have accrued the charges though - you mentioned actions and things? What were they? What sort of things did you get up to?|Lorna Richardson What would you have done to have accrued the charges though - you mentioned actions and things? What were they? What sort of things did you get up to?]] [[Keep listening quietly.. |Lorna Richardson What would you have done to have accrued the charges though - you mentioned actions and things? What were they? What sort of things did you get up to?]]

Well, I think my first one is actually trespass on a railway. Only it wasn't trespass on a railway. I chained myself to a helicopter on Waterloo station. Um, and it was I can't. This is thing of not having records. It was approached, there was a whole I mean it remember, this isn't very long after the Falklands. And we'd gone from this huge period of, and it seems weird now because in a way we've been involved in wars all the way through. [[Yes..|Lorna Richardson yes..]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson yes..]]

But for example, there's people in the military who had their entire sort of military, careers in the military who never saw action. That's not true now. But there was a big chunk of time between the end of, during the Cold War, but between the end of actual wars if you discount, you know, Korea and all the rest of it, which obviously you shouldn't, but there are there are, there was a certain period of time where where we weren't involved in hot wars, generally speaking, specific people were involved in specific things or peacekeeping operations or whatever. But um, but this wasn't very long after sort of geologically speaking as it were, it wasn't very long after the Falklands, and they were doing this sort of big recruitment thing. And I don't know, I can't remember, why anyway, so there's that. I mean, it wasn't it was very minor thing. But most of them the big one, the one that caused me to give up my A-levels was a action designed to, it was called a visibility action, because it was like, I'm pretty sure. The difficulty is, is that I was there for a long time, and you do a lot of things. And it's a bit like sort of mix and match, you might put one court case with one action, and they're not necessarily the same thing. But anyway, I think this is one where basically a bunch of us just kept cutting into the.. we did a big public entry into the base, as a way of saying, We are still here. This is still a live issue. Um, you know, the peace camp has been here for a number of years. And we know you're not really interested in it anymore. But let us tell you now that we are not stopping. And again, I'm terrible on the details because it's a long time ago, I think there were 12 of us got nicked, and unusually because normally you'd just been put through the um, er, er... magistrate's court which is a slap on the wrist and you know you can choose a fine or you get bound over to keep the peace or whatever and you can choose not to pay the fine and then you go to prison la la la la la. Unusually for this one um, because of the, if I remember right, the sum of money that we were alleged to have caused damage to, to a limit of um, it gave us the choice to go to Crown Court and so we thought, rock on. And normally in the normal course of affairs, you would not wish to go to Crown Court because the penalties are much longer and it takes a lot, you know, and it was, I think it was a first court Crown Court thing we had at Greenham. [[Did you want to because it was more high profile?|Lorna Richardson Did you want to because it was more high profile?]] [[Can you tell me about the trial?|Lorna Richardson Can you tell me about the trial?.]]

Well, actually, well it was a mixture of that. But also, you didn't get three newbie magistrates trying you, you got 12 people. Actual people who weren't there to uphold a certain view of what the way the world should be view, it's literally a jury of your peers. [[Oh interesting.|Lorna Richardson Can you tell me about the trial?.]] [[Listen quietly|Lorna Richardson Can you tell me about the trial?.]]

And, I mean, oh, dear Lord, it took a long time. And the first. So we were a mixture of I mean, we were a real mixed bunch. Um, not all of us knew each other at the beginning. We certainly knew each other by the end. And it was it held in Newbury, and the first trial we had was a mistrial. Um, I think, was that Judge Mirchi? Anyway, and so some of us were represented by lawyers, there's these three wonderful lawyers, Izzy, Dora, and Elizabeth. Or Liv. And yeah, all wonderful. And um, and some of us represented ourselves, because you can get away with more, quite frankly, if you represent yourself. And I think I was the youngest there. And the first was a mistrial, because somebody had submitted and none of, our argument wasn't that we hadn't done it, because we very clearly had, and we meant to do it, and where, there was photos of us, that was not the issue. [[Right|Lorna Richardson Right...]] [[Keep listening quietly|Lorna Richardson Right...]]

The issue was, why we'd done it. And like so for example, I um, I mean, you know, the example that Rebecca always uses, which I don't, I don't know, if anybody, I don't think any of us used it this sort of same sort of thing is, you know, if a house is burning down and you kick through the door, it would be unjust to arrest you for criminal damage to the door. Um, because you're saving people's lives by kicking down the door and getting the sleeping family out. Which I think is a very neat and, and fast way of explaining it. And it's not a you know, I mean, I've had the same sort of discussions about Extinction Rebellion. Is it a pain in the arse not being able to get home? Yes, it's going to be more of a pain in the arse when society breaks down. And we're all scrambling in rubbish heaps for you know, banana skins. Um, so better the disruption now than than disruption later. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah. ]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah. ]]

Um, and somebody submitted a copy of Greenham Women Are Everywhere, which is one of the publications that somebody had made. And because it had a photo of, of, of something in it, and it appeared from the evidence pile sort of completely wrapped in gaffa tape. So that the jury when this evidence was submitted, couldn't read any of the things so they could only see the photo. And another one of the lawyers said, when you are in the jury room, rip off the tape and read its publication. And for some reason, that was counted as sort of improper, I don't know. Anyway.. [[And that went towards a mistrial?|Lorna Richardson And that went towards a mistrial?]] [[Wow!|Lorna Richardson Wow!]]

I think that was it. [[Wow!|Lorna Richardson Wow!]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Wow!]]

I couldn't swear to it. But I'm pretty sure that was one of the things that he said anyway. So we had to start all over again. And we were I mean, we were a week in by that point. I mean, it wasn't a quick thing. And so we had to wait another few months, and we had another trial. And, and I was I mean, bearing in mind, I was I think I was, had I hit 18 by then? Again, I'm terrible at dates. I'm terrible at periods of time. I was certainly 17 when we started, I was probably, I was almost certainly 18 by the time we finished. And so I was one of the I think I was the youngest. And, um, and, you know, we were all sort of like bracing ourselves because of this crown court trial, we didn't know was happening, we were fairly sure we're gonna go to jail. And it was this bizarre situation when the jury gave their verdicts. I don't think there's a word for it, um. If you call a scapegoat, the one person who is punished instead of a group. I don't know if there is a word for the one person who is released as an indication. And of the 12 of us, 11 were found guilty. And I was found not guilty. And I think it's because, and I think it was they wanted to let one of us go. Um, and, you know, I was there on the stand. saying, "Yes, I cut the fence. Yes I did this. This is what I blah de..." There was no, there was no question at all, that I had committed damage. The only question was whether it was criminal. However, I was the youngest in the group or nearly the youngest. And I certainly looked the youngest. And I think it was the jury's way. And you know, the ways of juries are mysterious and I've been a juror bizarrely enough since. Um, so you never know. But it seemed to be a very clear way of them indicating... sympathy or something. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah again]]] [[And did the people that were convicted go to prison?|Lorna Richardson And did the people that were convicted go to prison?]]

I don't, they couldn't let us all go. Or at least then they couldn't let us all go I mean subsequent trials have done different things. Um... [[And did the people that were convicted go to prison?|Lorna Richardson And did the people that were convicted go to prison?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think some did, no they didn't get they didn't get custodials. There's been very few outright custodials. I mean, one of.. there might have, I can't, do you know, I can't remember. Really can't remember. I mean, a lot of us went to prison for refusing to pay fines. [[Did you, did you serve prison time as well?|Lorna Richardson Did you, did you serve prison time as well?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. [[How was that?|Lorna Richardson How was that? ]] [[And where was that?|Lorna Richardson And where was that?]]

Um.. [[Where was that?|Lorna Richardson And where was that?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was. I've had. This is a little bit unusual in that I've actually had three crown court trials. [[Oh okay, so you've had three Crown Court trials?|Lorna Richardson Oh okay, so you've had three Crown Court trials?]] [[What was it like when you did go to prison? Did you go to Holloway, or..?|Lorna Richardson What was it like when you did go to prison? Did you go to Holloway, or..?]]

Yeah. And like the second that was quite a long time after the first. And there were two of us. And we had separate trials. I don't know how they got separated, because it's obviously nicer to have them done together. And um, Anne went first. And she got a year. Which, obviously.. [[That's a long time.|Lorna Richardson That's a long time.]] [[Why did she get such a long time?|Lorna Richardson why did she get such a long time?]]

Hideous for her. She was lovely. I mean, she's always described as a vicar's wife, which I think sort of um, you know, it's like actually, she's a hell of a lot more than that. He should be described as a yes, yes.. [[A Greenham Woman's husband.|Lorna Richardson A Greenham Woman's husband.]] [[Why did she get such a long time?|Lorna Richardson why did she get such a long time?]]

Because it was Crown Court. [[Wow.|Lorna Richardson Wow.]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. Absolutely. And um.. [[Why did she get such a long time?|Lorna Richardson why did she get such a long time?]] [[What was it like when you did go to prison? Did you go to Holloway, or..?|Lorna Richardson What was it like when you did go to prison? Did you go to Holloway, or..?]]

I went a bunch of times. And some of it was on remand. Remand then was a lot easier than regular. You used to be able to get, like I don't smoke, and I'm not really a drinker. But as a personal remand then, you could get fags sent in everyday and you could get a can of beer sent in everyday. [[Really!|Lorna Richardson Really!]] [[Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?|lorna Richardson Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?]]

And I was just thinking, oh shit, shit! I didn't get a custodial then. I can't remember why. I cannot remember what happened there. Honestly, this is awful. I'm a terrible interviewee I'm so sorry.. [[No no, not at all. What's what was it like when you did go to prison? Did you go to Holloway, or..?|Lorna Richardson What was it like when you did go to prison? Did you go to Holloway, or..?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson What was it like when you did go to prison? Did you go to Holloway, or..?]]

Isn't that bizarre? So of course, it makes you you know, it's it, you just, I remember one of the screws saying to me, I haven't seen you smoke, and it's like, well, I'm an occasional smoker. All my friends are putting away fags I'm just passing on to all the other women in the buil.. in the, in the wing. It was horrible, um... But it was, I mean, I was only ever in for very short times. My, it was like you know, a week here, a fortnight there. I think maybe three weeks, um, couple of days here, couple of days there. The longest I ever did was my third Crown Court trial, and I got four months. [[Gosh.|Lorna Richardson Gosh. ]] [[Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?|lorna Richardson Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?]]

Mostly lovely. No, the thing is there's a really actually. There's there's a documentary about Holloway that they made before it shut which would be really worth you watching. What I didn't understand at the time, because I thought we were just a sort of drop in the pool. Because I mean, the, the female prison population is really small now comparatively to men. [[Yes. |Lorna Richardson Yes prison]] [[Did any of them come out to Greenham afterwards or anything?|Lorna Richardson Did any of them come out to Greenham afterwards or anything?]]

Of which I did two. [[Right. |Lorna Richardson Right. ]] [[Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?|lorna Richardson Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?]]

Erm, and after that, I thought, actually since then, I have not broken the law. [[Really? That was long enough?|Lorna Richardson Really? That was long enough?]] [[Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?|lorna Richardson Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?]]

That was, I just thought I'm done now. [[Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?|lorna Richardson Do you talk to, how did you find other prisoners were with you when you were in there? Did it, did you have much to do with them?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And it was small then. I mean, it's still way too many women in prison. And, I I just thought we were a sort of tiny handful of randoms sort of sweeping through. I think we were a bigger chunk of the prison population than I realised at the time. And um mostly, I mean, there was one or two exceptions. I, I, I met a lot of lovely women. I did think I'm the only person in the world who really ever pays for anything but you know. [[Did any of them come out to Greenham afterwards or anything?|Lorna Richardson Did any of them come out to Greenham afterwards or anything?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

No, not that I know of. [[Ok.|Lorna Richardson Ok.]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

That was, I mean, a lot, I mean, I was very young at the time. A lot of them were very young. I mean, I remember being, um, you know, in a sharing, a four room, room with a girl who was 15. [[Gosh.|Lorna Richardson Gosh.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Gosh.]]

And um, you know, who couldn't read or write and you just think, Oh, God. Um, it, going to prison, while I never wish to do it again. And I can't actually tell you how many times I did it, because again, they all blur into one. And I mean, you know, do you count four four days in a police cell as going to prison? [[Yes. Definitely. |Lorna Richardson Yes. Definitely. ]] [[I don't know..|Lorna Richardson Yes. Definitely. ]]

Oh alright then. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's a bit. And the difference with this, the last one was, it was my first custodial, I'd been in prison a lot. But this was the first time I had not been at at, because it you know, a door is shut. And you can leave the door shut as long as you know, you can open it again. And if if you if you're in well, actually, that's not true with remand, you're stuck in remand until but you know, it's not gonna be forever. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah yet again. ]] [[Nod quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah yet again. ]]

But if you if you're in, because actually, in that way, remand is more difficult than being in because you're not paying a fine. Um, but if you're in because you haven't paid a fine, you can ask somebody to pay a fine, and you can get out again. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson another yeah]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson another yeah]]

Um, and you know, if you're in, if you're on a custodial. [[You just have to see it out don't you.|Lorna Richardson You just have to see it out don't you.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson You just have to see it out don't you.]]

You have to see it out. So I was mostly in Holloway. Um, I went to East Sutton Park, which is a sort of open prison, which was a total waste of time because it was, um, I think Douglas Hurd was Home Secretary. And there was this whole scandal about people being in prison in in police cells over Christmas. [[Mmm.|Lorna Richardson Mmm.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Mmm.]]

Oh, we can't have people in police cells over Christmas. So ins, this was presented as a sort of... humanitarian thing of getting people out of police cells. What in practice it meant is that they just shuffled people around prisons rapidly. So who knows where the hell you ended up, so I was transferred out of Holloway into East Sutton Park. And of course, all my mail was sent to Holloway, so they'd send it on to Sutton Park. And then because of this shuffling around, I was sent from East Sutton Park back to Holloway, after a week in East Sutton Park, um, and all my mail stayed at East Sutton Park and so it's been people writing to me at Holloway it's been sent to East Sutton Park. So there was weeks when I didn't, I had a ton of mail, but was given to me when I left. But there was a whole chunk of time in there that I didn't get any, and mail is huge. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson another one of the Yeahs]] [[Keep listening quietly|Lorna Richardson another one of the Yeahs]]

I mean, you know, a tube a tube of toothpaste is huge in prison. I'm not necessarily going to stick your mail on the wall with it, but um.. [[You stick your mail on the wall with toothpaste?|Lorna Richardson You stick your mail on the wall with toothpaste?]] [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson here is another yeah]]

It works. [[(Laughter) Brilliant.|Lorna Richardson (Laughter) Brilliant.]] [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson here is another yeah]]

And so I, but even that, that is a really good lesson for me in not taking public policy as that is intended to be a good thing, as something that actually ends up being good for the people for whom it is, you know, sort of declaring that this kind of What are we doing for prisoners? They are not going to be in police cells over Christmas! Screw you. Because, you know, I mean, it didn't matter with me so much, because I wasn't in for very long. And I had a whole bunch of women who would track me down and find me and visit me. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson yup its another yeah]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It's, um, but small things mean a lot. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson here is another yeah]]

And who could raise the funds. I mean, there wasn't a lot of money sloshing around. But somebody would find some money and there would be you know, I would be visited. There are a lot of, a lot, most women in prison for whom that is not the case. Who whose families don't have the resources to find out where the hell they are, who don't have the money to go and visit them who don't have the time to go and visit them if they're halfway across the bloody country. I mean, it's really weird when Hollaway shut down. And there's nothing humanitarian about the, it was just a big chunk of real estate North London, of course, they're going to sell it. And there's a bit of me which thinks I ought to be delighted by that. There's another bit of me, which thinks, where do the families of prisoners go when they can't get on a tube? So going to prison was, going to Greenham was one of the formative experiences of my life. Going to prison is another of the formative experiences of my life. [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Practically all the formative experiences of my life, being involved I.. it was because of Greenham that I became involved in the Namibia support committee, and going to Namibia and working with, um, Southern African activists was one of the formative experiences of my life. And I came through that because um, the British nuclear weapons program was using uranium that was being taken by er, Rossing from Namibian uranium mines, which is had huge problems for Namibian miners that, you know, they were um, and, you know, apartheid was in full swing and Namibia were occupied by South, you know, the South Africa apartheid state. So, I mean, it's, you know, the word intersectional is used now, but all these things were incredibly interlinked, which is why we ended up at Aldermaston. Um, so, even stuff that I did later on, I can trace back to Greenham. Um, all the stuff that was in the I mean, we had the one where, um, I went, where I had a custodial, I did that with Lynn. [[Oh, did you?|Lorna Richardson Oh, did you? ]] [[What did you get a custodial sentence for?|Lorna Richardson What would you have done to have accrued the charges though - you mentioned actions and things? What were they? What sort of things did you get up to?]]

Um, the one where I had a custodial, we had somebody from the Namibia support committee giving evidence about Namibian uranium. [[What did you get a custodial sentence for?|Lorna Richardson What would you have done to have accrued the charges though - you mentioned actions and things? What were they? What sort of things did you get up to?]] [[Brilliant.|Lorna Richardon Brilliant.]]

Um, but different Jane from the other Jane. [[Right.|Lorna Richardson Right again]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Right again]]

Erm, was going to Nevada and doing a direct action against British nuclear testing. And that was organized by Rebecca because she was working for Greenpeace at the time. And again, one of the most formative experiences in my life, and they're not that many, I've just listed them all. Well, most of them apart from having a kid. Um, and, you know, that can you know, I did it with other Greenham women as a as a sort of direct result of having been at Greenham, um, against the British nuclear testing program. [[So you were over in Nevada were you?|Lorna Richardson So you were over in Nevada were you?]] [[Wow. |Lorna Richardson Wow. ]]

Yes. [[Wow. |Lorna Richardson Wow. ]] [[Keep listening quietly|Lorna Richardson Wow. ]]

There was we used to have a yearly, we, Britain, used to have a yearly nuclear weapons test. Um, and on in Nevada, on Nevada testing site, and, um, we knew when it was coming up. Um, and we were approached. Um, and we were set up and we went across to Nevada. [[Who by? Who approached you?|Lorna Richardson Who by? Who approached you?]] [[By activists in this country?|Lorna Richardson activists in this country?]]

Rebecca. [[Oh, okay. Right. So activists in this country?|Lorna Richardson activists in this country?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson activists in this country?]]

Yes. Well, she was working for Greenpeace at the time. Except I think she was on one of the she couldn't do it for some reason. I think she was on one of the boats doing something. But she, you know, she was like, "I know, competent women who can get this done!" And so we all went across to Nevada, and we were hooked up with an activist there. And we spent three days walking across the desert across the test site we were sort of driven in the night onto the test site. And that's a very short way of, of, I mean, it all happened quite quickly. I mean, I was working I was working for it was my first job after Greenham. I was working for a little organization, which is still going and is still lovely, called The Peace Tax Campaign, which now called Conscience: The Peace Tax Campaign, which is all about diverting money that goes to war to um, more, you know, sort of constructive enterprises. Um, and so I'd taken a week off work to go to Nevada. And oh I loved the they were so kind to me, The Peace Tax Campaign they were brilliant. And, they kept my job open for me, while I was in prison. [[Really!|Lorna Richardson Really!2]] [[Did you, did you you run across the authorities in Nevada? I mean, were they different with you than in England?|Lorna Richardson Did you, did you you run across the authorities in Nevada? I mean, were they different with you than in England?]]

No, ooh well, no what cuz we got, we'd gone, you know, this we're in America. And so we've been driven on to the test site and sort of dumped out in the middle of the night. And then the three me Jane, Julie and Michael, who was the sort of American who knew. So we sort of, you know, hiding from the planes going across the test site we had to carry all our water because of course you can't drink water on a nuclear test site it's a terrible idea. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah 2222]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah 2222]]

They were brilliant, because I've gone to prison after I started working for them. Um, lovely, lovely people. [[That's great.|Lorna Richardson That's great.]] [[Did you, did you you run across the authorities in Nevada? I mean, were they different with you than in England?|Lorna Richardson Did you, did you you run across the authorities in Nevada? I mean, were they different with you than in England?]]

They were, they were fantastic. I'm, I knew they were fantastic at the time. But the older I get, the more I realise how fantastic they really were. [[Did you, did you you run across the authorities in Nevada? I mean, were they different with you than in England?|Lorna Richardson Did you, did you you run across the authorities in Nevada? I mean, were they different with you than in England?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

We had Geiger counters with us. And there's different ways you can measure, um, exposure. And again, I can't remember the details. But like there's one which will tell you how much it is per as you're going along. [[Yeah..|Lorna Richardson Yeah 333]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah 333]]

And another which is accumulation and you sort of go to sleep and it's hit the top and you think, ooh, let's reset it. So you you're carrying this ton of stuff, you're absolutely knackered I am. I mean, I'm, I'm, I was certainly a lot more agile than I am now. But um, I'm not particularly good with heights and we're sort of going up the sides of bloody canyons and things like that. And, it's a bit more complicated than this. But we actually got to the site where they were doing the explosion. It, it's more complicated than this, but about six minutes before it went off. And so they delayed it for half an hour. Because we, we were very, we knew we were very near this is a bit of a it sounds. Again, it's a bit of a sideshow. But it's a direct result of this. And it. So we're with we're knackered. We're carrying stuff, which, do you know, I wasn't I wasn't frightened at the time, I think the reason I wasn't frightened at the time is because I was so tired, you know what I mean. So we knew that we were right by the place where they do. I mean, Las Vegas is 100 miles away. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah 4444]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah 4444]]

And they warn the authorities in Las Vegas, not to have people on scaffolding. [[Wow.|Lorna Richardson Wow.22]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Wow.22]]

Because you know, the seismic shocks and all the rest of it. So we knew we were very close. And then there's a point at which we see all the cars we hide in the bushes, kind of thing while all the cars stream away from the site, because they have this thing where it's like um, like portacabins or something like that or I can't even remember. And then all these cables and wires plunged down into a hole in the ground. And then there's the device that's underneath the ground, being the nuclear device. And I mean, if you look at sort of photographs of what, you know, the Nevada Test Site is covered by craters, basically, where they've done underground ground nuclear testing and it's gone ftum! And so we think now's our chance. And I'm sent off first while they hide, except the place that we thought where it was wasn't the right place. And we're all on, on um, radios to each other. And so they all go off. And they found the right place, because I was and so then I, which is probably a good argument for having sent me off early in the first place. So then I then follow them. And they've all got to the spot, and I'm coming up. And there's this helicopter who comes behind me. And it lands on the path behind me while I'm sort of approaching where the other three are and where all these portacabins and stuff are, and they're sort of telling me to lie on the ground and all the rest of it, and I'm so tired at this point, I just think oh bugger that. And I go and meet the others and a couple have run off to hide so they can't be found. And, I go on to the bit where all the stuff is happening. And the helicopter basically lands on top of me. It basically hovers over me and just descends very slowly until I'm crouched on the ground with my hands over my head. And we're in the desert. So I'm in this sort of swirling thing of, of, of sand. And they just keep me on the ground with a helicopter over me until the security the Wackenhut come. And then the helicopter buggers off and they arrest us all. And they blindfold us and they, they blindfold us and they cuff us and they bung us in cars. And they drive like you wouldn't believe I mean blindfolding's a bit.. [[Terrifying? |Lorna Richardson Terrifying?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Oh, OK. Sounds terrifying to me. (Nervous laughter)]]

Well, no, blindfolding's a bit sort of, you know, meh. [[Really?|Lorna Richardson Really?44]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Oh, OK. Sounds terrifying to me. (Nervous laughter)]]

It was terrifying in that you. It's very difficult to measure time or distance when you're blindfolded. But they drove for about half an hour. And then they stopped and they parked up. And then we could feel the ground shake. And we knew they'd set it off. Um. and that was upsetting. [[Had your aim been to stop them from setting it off were you going to try and sabotage it or?|Lorna Richardson Had your aim been to stop them from setting it off were you going to try and sabotage it or?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

We'd been there already, you know? [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Oh, OK. Sounds terrifying to me. (Nervous laughter)]] [[Oh, OK. Sounds terrifying to me. (Nervous laughter)|Lorna Richardson Oh, OK. Sounds terrifying to me. (Nervous laughter)]]

No, oh my god, Jesus no! I'm not gonna touch that machinery. To be honest, what I hadn't realised is that the American activists didn't think we would get there at all, but because we didn't know that it's one of those. Do you know what I think? We were supposed to be heroic failures. Um, which is hilarious because we had no idea that we were supposed to be heroic failures. Um, and that it's but that's the thing. It's I mean, you can do actual sabotage. And I don't it's not sabotage, it's kicking the door down of a burning building. I would not and I have been in situations where things I have touched have have had to be reviewed before they are then used for military purposes. But a) there's no way, I mean, any of us are going to go anywhere you know, really. But just being there was the point. [[Right.|Lorna Richardson Right. 342345]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Right. 342345]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And they delayed it for half an hour. While they while they, and and, and I mean, one of the useful things was that it made for very dramatic headlines, when we got back to the UK, it was it was, you know, the tabloids were like, Six Minutes from Nuclear Bomb! All that kind of stuff, which is, if is, you know, if you're trying to, you know, if you say putting this banner on a nuclear test, it's not very headline worthy is it? [[If you're trying to draw attention to the fact that we do that once a year in Nevada, and all the rest of it.|Lorna Richardson If you're trying to draw attention to the fact that we do that once a year in Nevada, and all the rest if it.]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes, but the but the absolute, that the thing that was. I mean, I'd done a lot of actions by that time, the thing that was transformative about that, to me, is that we'd done it with the blessing and the cooperation and the permission of the Western Shoshone and most of the Nevada nuclear test site is er, on Western Shoshone land. Western Shoshone are a group of er, First Nation people. There's I, I don't, I don't know how many, I think there's something I'm probably wrong, about 10,000 strong. Um, there's all kinds of things about treaties. There's something called the Treaty of Ruby Valley. I haven't read about it in a long time. But there's, there is a strong opinion based in reasonable fact, which says that the Shoshone never gave up their land. So, um, the Shoshone say that they have, what happens on Shoshone land is their business, not the government's and the government shouldn't be blowing up nuclear weapons on it, which is fair point, really. And so when we went on to the land, we had been given permits by the western Shoshone to be on that land. And so when we came up in court, we were going, yep we got permission. Yes, we did it. Yes, we were there. But we got permission from the people whose land it is. And of course, yeah, that's the record. Yeah, yeah, that's not gonna happen. But it was like, again, when, you know, you are making connections between the violence done to indigenous people. Um, I mean, they, they've, you know, they've been at the forefront of anti nuclear activity and because it's happening on their land. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson Yeah.23434]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

So, yeah, all these connections. You know, we're using Namibian uranium, stolen from Namibian people at enormous cost to Namibian miners and to, you know, Namibian society as a whole. I mean, maybe it's tiny. I mean, Namibia's geographically huge, but the population is tiny. Um, and then we're blowing up the land of another group of people. [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Funnily enough, this erm I, I've heard this phrase before I've been, I've just started reread, reading or have really can't get the word out, reading for the first time the Sharp novels, you know, this sort of historical potboilers of the Napoleonic war. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah.44448]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah.44448]]

And this phrase comes up in that and has come up with any description of military life that I've ever read ever read. Hurry up and wait. [[Ah. Okay, yes. |Lorna Richardson Ah. Okay, yes. ]] [[Okay. |Lorna Richardson Okay.5645 ]]

And an awful lot of Greenham life was Hurry up and wait. [[Okay. |Lorna Richardson Okay.5645 ]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Okay.5645 ]]

It's either endless sitting round the bonfire having a cup of tea. I mean, the thing is, and I I've had this experience, I lived in a housing Co-Op about 20 years ago in Brixton, and there was a little taste of that there in that if you have if you have a really, and that was a politically based Co-Op. Um, with with activists from example, Namibia Support Committee and all that kind of stuff. Ah, if if you're in a location where political activity is the norm, you can sit and have a cup of tea and have the world come and have a cup of tea with you. And I, as I said it start, I started very young. And I learnt, it's not to say I haven't changed my mind on some things. My thinking's developed a lot over the years. But the cups of tea, were every bit as important as the, you know, the sort of dramatic actions with a pair of bolt cutters in your hand and all the rest of it. And.. [[Was that the consciousness raising time in a way?|Lorna Richardson Was that the consciousness raising time in a way?]] [[Pursuing the conscious-raising facts?|Lorna Richardson Pursuing the conscious-raising facts?]] [[Tell me more about the tea..|Lorna Richardson Tell me more about the tea..]]

Yes. [[Pursuing the conscious-raising facts?|Lorna Richardson Pursuing the conscious-raising facts?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Pursuing the conscious-raising facts?]]

It also means I think, I mean, this is one of the things but I, I hope that a kind of network or structure or something is developing with Extinction Rebellion, because one of the things that made taking action possible was that I'd had time and space and opportunity to talk through practically everything, and to change my mind about things, and to read things and to argue about things. And, you know, 10 Greenham women around a fire. 12 different opinions. And you know, and.. [[Would you say once, some groups and gates were more argumentative?|Lorna Richardson Would you say once, some groups and gates were more argumentative?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Would you say once, some groups and gates were more argumentative?]]

They developed their own personalities. And you sort of, I mean, there's a certain amount of, like gravitating to like, which is why so for example, I'd characterise blue gate as younger. And sometimes very young and working class. And, you know, um, green gate's, a bit more sort of interested in the sort of spiritual side of life and orange gate quite down to earth, um. But that's too simplistic. [[Okay. |Lorna Richardson Okay. 6456]] [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson Yeah 5353453]]

Erm, what I mean, stereotypes are there because there's a kernel of truth in them. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson Yeah 5353453]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah 5353453]]

What I really liked about blue gate was their ridiculous sense of humour. I mean, somebody had given them a van. And it was one of those old fashioned vans, where you've got the sort of bit where you can sleep in the roof, and you put the roof up? [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah 3456447]] [[I've not seen one of those!|Lorna Richardson Yeah 3456447]]

And somebody had written on that 'sleeping bags', because it could be sleeping bags, or it could be sleeping ... bags, because you know, and it was this sort of, I mean, that was a lot of Greenham songs as well. You take insults and you turn them around and, and own them. So we're just a bunch of old bags! [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

The actual songs probably, I mean, they were sort of dirty versions of, you know, or not even dirty versions, but like, um, you know, like the Carry Greenham Home there was the official version, which is all sort of uplifting and, and then there was the standard version, which is Carry Greenham Home, we're too pissed to walk alone, Carry Greenham Home. And that my my suddenly. My favourite verse of that was some ridiculous thing. (Singing) 'Woman toilet woman bad. Where the hell do you think you're at? Peanut brain in woolly hat? Go back to Russia. Go back to Russia, far away from Newbury, go back.' And it's silly. But and it's not sort of heroic. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah 36366566]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah 36366566]]

And, um, you know, (Singing) 'We work for the Russians for tuppence a day. They ask us to stay here, And that's why we stay, we drink lots of vodka and that's why we're gay, hey!' (Laughter) And you do that faster and faster and faster. And yeah, you take all the things that are thrown at you. And you turn them into ludicrous little ditties. Not these sort of sweeping heroics. You know? [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

Okay, so making a cup of tea. You've got to have the water to make a cup of tea which is, you've got to get to the standpipe to fill up the water bottle er, a water carrier thing. So if you're not at yellow gate, you have to get somebody to, with a car which isn't always easy, to drive around to the gate to fill up the water bottle and then you've got to get the standpipe from from the van out of yellow gate and set it up. Fill up the thing, take the standpipe back. [[So, the only place to get water is yellow gate?|Lorna Richardson So, the only place to get water is yellow gate?]] [[Yeah..|Lorna Richardson Yeah..54437]]

Yes. They had a standpipe. So then you take it back, oh, unless somebody brings it with them. [[Yeah..|Lorna Richardson Yeah..54437]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah..54437]]

And fill the kettle then you've got to get the wood. Either people bring wood, or you go and gather wood. Um, then you got to build the fire up. Um, there was a whole period of time, it lasted about a year and a half. When, um, the council and the police and the base we're trying to get rid of us. And it was this sort of, I mean, this happened all the time anyway, but this was a particularly intense period. And they do this thing where either they'd have a van parked near the the camp, whichever camp it was, or at yellow gate they'd have it sort of inside the main gate, that the base gate where you'd get a fire going and you'd have the kettle on top of, you'd have something cooking, whatever. And they'd rush out of the van or they'd rush out to the gate with, um, a jug of water basically, and they'd put out the fire. [[Oh! |Lorna Richardson Oh!]] [[Keep listening quietly...|Lorna Richardson Oh!]]

And they'd kick all the bits about and um, and then you think, oh fucking hell, so you'd pile all these sort of damp embers up and then you make another fire and they would put the kettle back on another, and Hazel who's like I said she's passed away now. She remembers that time as, because it was it was during summer and you know the fire just going, fdnk! (Laughter) And oh there again speaking of silly songs, somebody did a wonderful, wonderful version of Smoke Gets in Your Eyes. And I do not have a singing voice so I will just sort of (singing) 'The policeman said to me, as he poured water on my tea. Aaaaah. This land is military, kept exclusively, for plea, no, this land is MOD, kept exclusively for police and military. Oh, when you joined the force, was it to run through gorse? Aaaaah. 12 men in a van, with a watering can, is that how you began? The policeman he replied, as he kicked the logs aside. Aaaaah. At first I had my doubts, but they tell so many lies, smoke gets in your eyes.' [[Ha! That's really good!|Lorna Richardson Ha! That's really good!]] [[And they're wasting that sort of time doing that?|Lorna Richardson And they're wasting that sort of time doing that?]]

And that is pretty much the story of that summer trying to make a cup of tea. When, I mean you think, you look back on it you think, what were they thinking? Jesus! [[So petty apart from anything else.|Lorna Richardson So petty apart from anything else.]] [[They're wasting that sort of time doing that?|Lorna Richardson And they're wasting that sort of time doing that?]]

Yeah. 12 men in a van with a watering can, (laughter) and you just think oh for goodness sakes. [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

So petty, when you think of police cuts and you think of how long it takes to get anything done. And you think of.. [[And they're wasting that sort of time doing that?|Lorna Richardson And they're wasting that sort of time doing that?]] [[Keep listening quietly..||Lorna Richardson And they're wasting that sort of time doing that?]]

We had it was a very odd relationship with the British police. Now, I, we had quite a good relationship. This sounds odd. Um, the Thames Valley police had, a reputation of being terrible. And they were quite a lot at the time. Individuals, um, now, the especially at emerald gate because you'd have, you know, I don't know every 150 yards or something? You'd have squaddies, British squaddies, sort of guarding the fence. [[Right. |Lorna Richardson Right.252564 ]] [[Listen quietly..|Lorna Richardson Right.252564 ]]

And they would be so bored. Very, very, very bored indeed. And they'd talk to you. And you could actually, you know, they were desperate for a chat and they'd occasionally be posted singly or sometimes they'd sort of do a joint shift together like they do two shifts, but two of them, just whatever. And like in winter at emerald gate there was, you know, um, and like these were probably my age, you know, this is the weird thing. I was very young. They were very young. A lot of them. They didn't know how to make a fire. You know, it's snowing and they've got er, erm, what are those called, braziers. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah 235983459534]] [[I'm not sure.||Lorna Richardson Yeah 235983459534]]

And so we'd throw them over um, kindling. [[To help them?|Lorna Richardson To help them? ]] [[Listen quietly..|Lorna Richardson To help them? ]]

Yeah. (Laughter) And we had one lot, a sweet couple of lads who said, do you want some coal? And we were like, sure why not. And so, bless them, they had this army issue coal, they tried to throw a bag of coal over the fence. And of course, it's quite a high fence and they've got three rolls of barbed wire on the top and it catches in the barbed wire. And so it drops down. It's now full of little tiny holes. And so they go, oh that's not gonna work. Why don't you cut a hole in the fence? (Laughter) And we go, alright then! And there's literally snow on the ground. So we cut a hole in the fence and they shove it through the hole. And we just sort of, you know, wrap all the fence back to where it was. And we were right by the silos. And because the coal bag now has little holes in it, there's this sort of little trail of coal dust to this badly sort of put together hole in the fence. And, and I mean, you know, some of them were wankers and some of them were lovely, and most of them, um, I mean, we did have we did have ones who showed up to say hello. Um, one member of the MOD police sent his mum round with a load of um, well not sure if he sent his mum round. I'm sure she had her own views about it. I'm sure she's perfectly capable of saying no, if she didn't want to. But his mum came round with a load of firewood. [[Aaw. |Lorna Richardson Aaw. ]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Aaw. ]]

I had this odd thing. There was a small number of us who had our own personal um, DIs. Like if I got, most of the actions I did, I didn't do at Greenham. I went elsewhere, I did them at Aldermaston, I did one at Weathersfield, erm, at um, oh what the hell's it called? Burfield. You know, I did them elsewhere at Welford. I did them elsewhere in the country. And I use Greenham I did do stuff at Greenham but I also did stuff elsewhere. Anywhere I got arrested in the country, I would have a particular DI, er Frank Mason turn up and his Sergeant who was called Jane. So I had I have somebody sort of assigned to me. And I, and Lynn had um Frank and that as well. There was a few other women who had the same thing. [[Why was that then, was that coz you were repeat offenders, sort of thing, or..?|Lorna Richardson Why was that then, was that coz you were repeat offenders, sort of thing, or?]]

Possibly. But it was actually very convenient, because you got arrested in one place and then you got arrested in another place. And then they gave you the same court date and you can't be in Banbury, and, and Reading at the same time or whatever. But because DI Mason is also going to be there. He's the one who arranges for it. So it was not set up for our convenience. It was set up for their's. I have no doubt of that. But actually, it was quite convenient. And there's a there's a certain amount of erm, I mean, there's this wonderful, wonderful woman who founded and ran an organization called Women in Prison. Have you heard of them? [[Yes, I have, yeah.|Lorna Richardson Yes, I have, yeah.]] [[No, I haven't|Lorna Richardson Yes, I have, yeah.]]

They do Clean Break and all the rest of it. [[Yes, they're great aren't they?|Lorna Richardson Yes, they're great aren't they?]] [[Thanks, I'll look them up!|Lorna Richardson Yes, they're great aren't they?]]

And Chris, she was called Chris Tchaikovski. I got to meet her through my aunt, you know, the amazing one. And you have never met a more charismatic woman in your life, honestly, on it. Seriously, she's a really extraordinary woman. Um, and her argument was that Greenham Women were not so very different from other women prisoners. And I think she was right. And I think one of the ways in which she was right, is that you have this sort of weird sort of practical arrangement with police in some ways. It's almost normalized. You're you're having you know, you're um.. [[You're in a relationship of a sort with them?|Lorna Richardson You're in a relationship of a sort with them?]] [[Keep listening..|Lorna Richardson You're in a relationship of a sort with them?2]]

Yes! [[Keep listening..|Lorna Richardson You're in a relationship of a sort with them?2]]

Yes! But it's like, you know, we did an action at Welford after erm, Britain bombed Libya. And that bombing, one of the casualties in that bombing was um, one of Gaddafi's, er, daughters. It was an adopted daughter, she was six months old, and it wouldn't matter whose adopted daughter she was. [[No, of course.|Lorna Richardson No, of course.]] [[Listen quietly..|Lorna Richardson No, of course.]]

It's a baby. And Frank had had we knew Frank had had a baby and it was like, I remember, one of our questions on the stand was do you think a six month old baby girl is capable of terrorism? And he was, quite rightly, incredibly freaked out and distressed by that because I, you know, I can tell you when I mean, I don't know if you have kids, but your your, you know, your whole sort of your sort of projection as a as a new parent is enormous. [[Yes I do.|Lorna Richardson Yeah 4459656]] [[I don't, but I can imagine.|Lorna Richardson Yeah 4459656]]

And it was it was a very hard thing to ask him, but I think it was a necessary one. Because if our children are worth protecting, as much as I um... that oh, god, that's another thing. I'd forgotten about that. No, I hadn't. Because, you know, I mentioned Julie, the one we went to Nevada with? [[Yes..|Lorna Richardson yes..3636]] [[Not yet.|Lorna Richardson yes..3636]]

Me and Julie went to Libya, and got thrown out of Libya. Because, erm, we got it was after was it? When was it? It was before we did that action. It was well before the Nevada one. It was before we did the action that the well, because we which one was that? And that wasn't a Welford action. That was um, what's it called? Where they had the F1 elevens. Near Bambury. There's a oh Upper Heyford. Because the this is all incredibly disjointed. Okay, I'm sorry. So we knew the planes were going to go from Upper Heyford to bomb Libya. And... er, we thought this was an incredibly bad idea. Not because I mean, it's, it's not going to improve our chances of war. You know, bombing a country in the middle of the night, versus a diplomatic solution. It's, it's not a peacekeeping operation. It's not something that will improve our security. And it's not something that will take out Gaddafi. It will kill some of his people. It's not going to take out him. So anyway, we knew this was going to happen. So I think there was one, two, four of us, five of us, five of us, again, I'm terrible with numbers, um, who went to Upper Heyford in the middle of the night, we just cut in, I mean, that bearing in mind, this is this is an operation or military base run by the Americans, which is gearing up for a military action. So you know, if I had [[Yet you could just cut in? |Lorna Richardson Yet you could just cut in?]] [[You broke into Upper Heyford too?|Lorna Richardson Yet you could just cut in?]]

Yeah. So we go in, and we sort of standing around Upper Heyford and we go into a hangar and there are two it's brightly lit, full of soldiers full of American soldiers. It's got two F1 elevens which have got, you know, fuel cables. They are loading bombs onto the plane. We're like, alrighty then! And um, me and Katrina, climb up and they've got those little stairs that go into the cockpit? I do not know why we did this. But we did. We went up the stairs, Katrina got into the cockpit thought, 'Whurgh, this is a bad idea,' got out of the cockpit. And we sat at the top of the stairs, er, by the cockpit because we don't touch anything. Don't touch anything! And the others were because they were bombs you know that there were missiles that were being and so they were painting on the missiles because if the thing is if you if you paint a missile if you put paint on a missile, you can't use it as a missile because it buggers up the aerodynamics of it. [[I didn't know that|Lorna Richardson Ah! Handy! ]] [[Ah! Handy!|Lorna Richardson Ah! Handy! ]]

I presume if it's blobby paint that was something I presume I don't know anything about I should know more about aerodynamics than I do but nevermind. So and of course they freak out. The soldiers freak out they, half of them rush out you got ones coming in we were all arrested, lalalalala, and they that the flight went off that night, but it didn't go off with the two that we'd been in the hangar with. Not because we'd done anything to them, but because they needed to check that we hadn't done anything to them. Now. Like I said to you about the previous thing if it's something where you don't know what you're doing, you don't touch anything. Because who's not you know.. that.. there's a warplane there. And full of fuel. You're not going to touch anything. Erm, but the fact that we'd been in the hangar with them the fact that we've been sitting at the top of the stairs, so they.. [[How were they with you? What was their manner like with you?|Lorna Richardson How were they with you? What was their manner like with you?]]

Startled! (Laughter) Upset. Um, there have been times when I have been, I have felt in danger of my life. I don't remember that was one of them. [[That's interesting. But other times when you've been arrested or been held by the military or whatever, you felt in danger?|Lorna Richardson That's interesting. But other times when you've been arrested or been held by the military or whatever, you felt in danger?]] [[Were you frightened of, for your safety in Libya? Was that frightening?|Lorna Richardson Were you frightened of, for your safety in Libya? Was that frightening?]]

Yes. But.. I don't remember.. that doesn't mean I didn't feel it at the time. But I when I look back on it. I don't feel that. I don't think, I know I didn't feel it in Nevada, and that realistically I was in danger. I was in danger either of physical injury from the bomb going off when we were on the site. And at least from broken bones, if not from anything else. (And) there was um, oh what are those big spiders? [[Tarantulas?|Lorna Richardson Tarantulas?]] [[Big spiders...?!!||Lorna Richardson Tarantulas?]]

There were moments, yes, yes. They we had got this bizarre invitation was to Greenham and diplomatic relations had been severed by then. So it was through, through somebody else, like the Maltese government or something I can't remember. I've probably slandered The Maltese by that, saying, Do you want to go to this conference in Libya? And our sort of base collective thing was, we will talk to anybody. And we will not hold back how we feel about things, but we will talk to anybody. I went, mostly because I was one of the few people that had a passport.Um, and a fair chance of getting back into the country. And Julie was the same. And so we went, and it was... this conference held in Tripoli. I mean, this is right in the sort of, this is in Mad Dog Gaddafi, kind of, you know, when that was, it was right in the heart of the crisis. And he basically, I mean, he was accused at the time and it was absolutely right, that he was funding all sorts of things around the world. It was it was a mixture of people. Many, many desperate people, tiny little indigenous organizations, big political things. And then the SWP was there, which was.. God, that awful, man, that awful man, what was his name? You know, the really creepy one who has since died? Who had all the accusations against him? I'm sure he was there. A few 100 people, and he was it was this sort of thing. You know, creating the green army. And we me and Julie we're assigned a minder this lovely woman who was described herself as a man, older woman, older Libyan woman. And so we started talking to people. And trying to, you know, people sort of asked us. And there weren't very many women at this conference, there was about 30. And we're talking hundreds of people. And there wasn't very many people from Europe or America, there was a group from America. Not a very big group, because it was illegal to go from America then I believe. [[Right. Okay.|Lorna Richardson Right. Okay.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Right. Okay.]]

Tarantulas, that's right, we saw Tarantulas. Yeah. So I was too tired then to.. [[Care?|Lorna Richardson Care?]] [[Run?|Lorna Richardson Care?]]

Feel (Laughter) pretty, really tired. But yeah, so we we got before that happened, because I remember the reason why I knew it was before. Because again, I'm terrible on dates. I remember in the van that was taking us to Holloway, one of the screws or one of the police said, you should go and protest in Libya or something. And I said, well, we've just been thrown out of Libya. And she didn't believe us. And I was I remember feeling very sort of.. [[Indignant.|Lorna Richardson Indignant]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Indignant]]

..Yeah.. But we really, really have. And that was me and Julie. [[Were you frightened of, for your safety in Libya? Was that frightening?|Lorna Richardson Were you frightened of, for your safety in Libya? Was that frightening?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Um, and... it was a weird mixture. I mean, my... I knew very little of a lot of the situation of a lot of people there in that I mean, they were, you know, like I said tiny little indigenous groups from all over the place, as well as really dodgy people that you wouldn't want to align yourself with. And we tried to talk to them all. And it was just trying to explain that, you know, your, your, you know, as a sort of feminist pacifist. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah.474w6e67 ]] [[Keep listening quietly.. |Lorna Richardson Yeah.474w6e67 ]]

You have every bit of subject as much objections to you know anyone else's missiles and army as you do the British or the Americans, you can imagine how well that went down. But you know we talked to lots of people and it was nice. We met some very nice people. And then the first day of the actual conference proper started. And we're in this hall with about 600 people. And they do this sort of praise chanting, they lock the doors. That's always a fun moment. And the lined, the wall, oh it's raining! The walls are lined with Gaddafi's bodyguards, who are all these young women. So the praise singing came up. And then, this is to cut a sort of long story short, Gaddafi came into the room. The entire hall leapt to their feet. And I hadn't actually discussed this with Julie. But we had this sort of we kept sitting, because, and Julie was sitting there going, Oh, god, oh, god, oh, god, oh, god. I'm sitting there thinking, we're going to be shot, we're going to be shot, we're going to be shot, we're going to be shot. But neither of us could bring ourselves to stand up and cheer because what's the point? What's the point of us? What is the point of us? If we're gonna do that? It was what the joy of going with Julie, is that we didn't have to discuss it. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah.q3463636 ]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah.q3463636 ]]

It was just automatic. She wasn't gonna stand up. I wasn't gonna stand up. We weren't gonna be doing. And erm, you just think, oh shit! So there you go. Everybody, you know, tumultuous applause chantings and 'Raaargh!' everybody sits down again. And this is a sort of weird comic interlude. Now we'd been given these goodie bags for this sodding conference. And in the goodie bag, I mean, it had all sorts of bizarre things like copies of the Green Book. I've got a Gaddafi bootlace tie. (Laughter) I still have that, don't have much of the rest of it. But I have the tie. And and there was this cartoon it was like a graphic novel. But it was a graphic novel as of Gaddafi's early life, you know, 'Gaddafi standing up to his imperialist teachers', Gaddafi doing this, you know, all of the other manly sort of rather dodgy cartoon book, because for some reason I had, because I'd been rooting through the goodie bag, as you do at the beginning of a conference thinking, what the hell is this. And I had this cartoon back in my, in my hands, when I'm sitting down, everybody settles down, everybody sits down, the man in front of me turns around and snatches the comic book out of my hand, because I'm not worthy to have it. And, just you know, oh shit. And er, and at this point, people start to avoid us quite naturally. And er, not everybody, but they do. Because, and I don't blame them. You know? [[Yes. It's dangerous.|Lorna Richardson Yes. It's dangerous.]] [[Yes..|Lorna Richardson Yes. It's dangerous.]]

You don't you don't want to? Yeah. And so we carry on going to the conference, try to talk to people. And then we think bugger this! You know, actually, no, we don't. Tere is a point and so with thought, well we're in Libya, we'll have a look around Tripoli. And you can imagine in the middle of this crisis, it wasn't a hotspot for tourism. And we every morning to go to this. And this is literally in the space of a few days that the coach arrives and it takes you to the conference venue from the hotel. And we didn't have any money, and we didn't have any, our passports had been taken away. And so we hide in our hotel room. Um until the coaches have gone, so we don't have to go to this conference. [[Oh goodness..|Lorna Richardson Oh no!]] [[Who's got your passports at this point?|Lorna Richardson Who's got your passports at this point?]]

And er, so as we're hiding in the hotel room, our hotel room bursts in, and these two guys come in, like they're gonna search the room, except we're sitting there. (Laughter) And then, it's just, it's just this bizarre thing when.. [[They thought they were gonna go through your stuff, because you weren't there?|Lorna Richardson They thought they were gonna go through your stuff, because you weren't there?]] [[What did they do?|Lorna Richardson What did they do?]]

The whoever's running this thing. [[Oh no!|Lorna Richardson Oh no!]] [[Oh goodness..|Lorna Richardson Oh no!]]

Yeah. And we were like, hmm.. It was this ridiculous series of comedic interludes. [[What did they do?|Lorna Richardson What did they do?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson What did they do?]]

We were all just it was all terribly awkward and they left. (Laughter) And, you know, and then we thought, and so we had a walk around Tripoli, which was nice in a slightly bizarre way. Other things, and we talked, and we did actually talk to the Americans, which was interesting. It, it was that those are the sort of really peculiar highlights. And then on the Thursday, there was due to be a tour of um the, and we're still trying to explain to people what we're doing at Greenham because they think oh, you're anti American.. that's why you're here and it's like, we're not anti American. In fact, there's actually a lot of American women at Greenham. And we're anti militarism. We're anti nuclear. We are anti violence, we are trying to create something new. And anyway, so there was due to be a tour of a Libyan military site on the Thursday. And on the Wednesday night, I think I think I've got my dates right. On the Wednesday night. We had a phone call at five in the morning, saying, 'Be ready, cause the plane leaves at nine.' Oh right! And that was that. And that was so when we got back. And this, this woman in this, this police officer, or whoever she was, in this van, as we pull up to Holloway is saying, Go and protest in Libya. Well, actually! [[How did did Greenham pay for, for you to go and do that? Was there like a collective fund that women could go off and talk about it?|Lorna Richardson How did did Greenham pay for, for you to go and do that? Was there like a collective fund that women could go off and talk about it?]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

No, that was paid for by I think the Maltese or something, who... Which seems very sort of, I mean, yes, we were bad guests. But they invited us. And um, if you're gonna, yeah, don't do something. And I try. I'm dealing with the same things now. If I'm going to be part of something, then I'm going to try and remain true to the purpose of that. I'm going to try I mean, you can be diplomatic, at various degrees, you can compromise if there are things which do not betray your principles. But there are points at which you actually go, yeah, no, actually. This has to be done. And yeah, so.. That was that. [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Right. Okay. What is a Greenham Woman? A Greenham Woman is any damn woman who wishes to call herself a Greenham Woman. And I really, really, I think it's antithetical to the both the spirit and the practicality of Greenham to divide women into camp women who live there, and visitors who do not. [[Okay.|Lorna Richardson Okay.735]] [[Listen quietly..|Lorna Richardson Okay.735]]

And it's funny, the squaddies that we used to know at emerald had a term they used to call some of the women SAS, Saturdays and Sundays. (Laughter) But it's a false division. And it's a false division, both philosophically and practically. Like they were women I knew, there's this amazing, amazing woman who was a retired Catholic school teacher, who drove like a rally driver on speed. Who could follow a cruise convoy in the middle of the night like nobody you've ever met in your life. Absolutely extraordinary woman loved her to bits. She's she's she died in her 80s and she died quite some time ago. And, and, and I'm pretty sure she I think we all sort of, you know, talked her out of it in the end, but she's exactly the sort of person who'd go, ooh I never lived there. But she was there, you know, um... over a long period of time, you know, she still had a house, um, she still did other things. She was very heavily involved in refugee which she was one of the early sort of workers in the refugee welcome movement and in way back when.. Er in Oxford, and, um, where was she living? Anyway whatever. And but if you want to be sort of utilitarian about it, hour by hour, she was there a lot more than many women who say, 'Ooh, yes, I lived there'. But, I mean, I lived there exactly as long as I wanted to. And when I didn't want to anymore. I left. And, the women who spend a day there who spent a weekend there who spend a week there who spend a month or will come once once a year, or have come twice in their life. Or, and this... this whole um, division into Greenham Women and supporters is also a false division. I, there are times in my life where I have found it easier to say, for example, sit in the middle of the road during a blockade, or cut a fence and go into a nuclear base, that I have to knock on a row of my neighbour's doors. And, you know, say I'm doing a sponsored la dee, da dee da for whatever. And they are all different forms of work. And if Greenham was just, if, if you divided Greenham into women who said they lived there, and the women who called themselves supporters, or visitors or any of those other iterations, then Greenham would be a fraction of what it was and it would be lesser. And that is not true, it does not reflect it dividing Greenham women up into visitors and Greenham Women or dividing Greenham Women up into supporters and Greenham Women does not reflect the reality of Greenham. And women who spent a short time either once in their life, or as often as they like, are every bit as much Greenham women if they choose to be so as ones who, I mean, there are a women who would call themselves Greenham Women who came, who had this intense burst of activity, and then left and were never seen again. And that's fine, too. [[It might affect you enough that day that changes what you do when you take yourself away from Greenham. Take it home with you.|Lorna Richardson It might affect you enough that day that changes what you do when you take yourself away from Greenham. Take it home with you.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|ou do when you take yourself away from Greenham. Take it home with you.|Lorna Richardson It might affect you enough that day that changes what you do when you take yourself away from Greenham. Take it home with you.]]

But in term but in terms of actual camp life? You know, it's like the women who come up and again, I think a lot of them saw themselves as supporters who would do a night shift. If you're waiting for the convoy or if we if we're experiencing a lot of attacks. They all, it's it's like any, any sort of functioning thing, every part of you take one part out of it, the rest of it falls apart. All those are part of it and and that, that whole supporters and Greenham women thing, I think is philosophically and practically untenable. And and not helpful. And just not true. You know? [[All, like you say, it's all..|Lorna Richardson All, like you say, it's all ]] [[Yes..|Lorna Richardson All, like you say, it's all ]]

And in many ways, it was easier when you were living there to have that constant network and that constant support. And, you know, if you're going to court in Newbury, you know there's going to be women outside of the court. If you're then if you're if you've come and visited from wherever the hell and you end up in magistrates in wherever you are, it's there's a, the thing about living at Greenham is that there's a certain drama about it. And that drama is quite helpful in a lot of ways, because it attracts attention. It's I mean, it's dramatic. I mean, that's the whole point. It doesn't mean that the things that have less obvious drama, are easier. And again, I see this I've been I was very heartened with the Extinction Rebellion stuff this time around. Because I mean there was plenty of drama. But they kind of got there was more understanding of when to step back. When to regroup. When other people needed to step forward, there was more sort of they were planning for the longer term. [[Yes, less, not so much machismo, maybe in a way.|Lorna Richardson Yes, less, not so much machismo, maybe in a way.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah 6q344646]]

Yes. Very much so. And, yeah, it's just that thing of just because it's dramatic, doesn't mean it's more difficult. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson Yeah 6q344646]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah 6q344646]]

And, and I think, and I, and it's been interesting seeing it play out with a sort of new set of a new set of activists, including people who will have been activists in other things over over a long period of time is... it's exactly that, machismo. It just because something doesn't have dramatic flair, doesn't mean it's easy. It can be the most difficult thing to do to, you know, talk at a local meeting or knock on your neighbour's door, or raise money or be the one who sorts a, like there was a I mean, I wasn't a Quaker then although this is how I came into Quakerism. But there was a, erm, a Quaker in a meeting up north like Cumbria, who invented something known as a getaway. There's a, Lynette's got one, erm, she'd lent it to the local museum. It was because during the evictions, you had a matter of minutes to pick up all your stuff and stop it being put into the muncher. And somebody in Cumbria meeting or something sat down and thought ooh how about, and they invented this wonderful, wonderful tent, it was a single skinned, single person tent made out of three hooped sort of tri.. it was a triangular tent. I don't think sort of hooped tents had been invented then. So it was like old fashioned tent tubing that sort of aluminium tubing. Um in. So if you can imagine three L shapes, With the sort of corner of the L at the top? [[Right? |Lorna Richardson Right? ]] [[I think so..|Lorna Richardson Right? ]]

Sewn into a tent with an integral ground sheet. And there was a pointy bit at the end of each of the L, L. So you could literally plonk the three things into a row. So it made up a tent, it didn't have a top um, er, crossbar or anything like that, but it didn't need one. And then sewn into each end of this sort of pup tent was a single erm, tent peg. So the entire tent had two tent pegs and a pointy bit at the end of each of the L shapes which kept the tent in the tent shape. And you could literally, un, un-pitch it that's the word.. You pitch your tent, you un, well whatever, by at a run, scooping your hand through the three Ls and pick the whole damn thing up off the ground, and erm, and I, they were lovely I mean, it was only a single skin. So you know, you had to be a bit careful with it. But it was waterproof and lalalalala. And somebody thought and designed that and invented it and then raised up enough money from other Quakers, to um, have a bunch of them made and then sent them to us. And they were brilliant! I spent many a happy night in that, you know, getaway. And you know, that's a huge contribution! Massive! And I, I will remember that always. [[Yeah. |Lorna Richardson Yeah.252535]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was an absolutely brilliant thing for somebody to do. And I have no idea if they ever came to Greenham at all. Um, so.. Yeah, and also, this whole thing about hierarchies. [[Hmm.|Lorna Richardson Hmm]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Hmm]]

You know, this, it's, again, with the drama. I mean, I my my Greenham narrative has a certain amount of drama in it, because of the Nevada thing because of the Libya thing because of the prison thing. Because lalalalalala if I'd spent four years at Greenham getting on with talking to people, with erm, maintaining the life of the camp, with er, welcoming other people in with making sure everything functioned with doing whatever, you know, doing. I mean, that would have been every bit as valid. And I did those things anyway, because everybody did them. But yeah. The, when I think of the difficult things, actually what I think of when I think of my whole life, I mean, I don't when I look back on, you know, Nevada, erm, I look back on it with warmth and fondness. I don't experience it as trauma, you know what I mean? So, ooh yeah, we did that. Um, whereas other things are much more difficult. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson yeah q43874874]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

So it, which is not.. [[Context is everything. |Lorna Richardson Context is everything.]] [[Yes. Looking back on it.|Lorna Richardson Yes. Looking back on it.]]

Context is everything. And it's not always clear if you have not been involved in that. [[Yes. Looking back on it.|Lorna Richardson Yes. Looking back on it.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yes. Looking back on it.]]

So in that, yeah. So those things were a kind of gift to me. Um, rather than yeah, you know what I mean? [[Lovely.|Lorna Richardson Lovely.]] [[Yes, I think I do.|Lorna Richardson Lovely.]] [[I'm learning..|Lorna Richardson Lovely.]]

I think I've said it enough, but there you go. [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, there's a thing that the point of Greenham history is that it's collective. And I have been involved in a number of political movements like the, I mean my involvement with the Namibia Support Committee was, as you know, a branch, if you like, of the sort of broader anti apartheid movement, although it was, it was sort of quite specific. And in any political movement, you get stuff which is produced at the time for sort of campaigning purposes, and which is subsequently used as sort of part of the historical record. And you get stuff which is written as polemic, to change people's minds, you get stuff which is written immediately post to the thing to either justify yourself or to say that you are completely irrelevant, irrelevant, or whatever. And I've seen all that happen with practically every sort of political in, you know, thing I've been involved in. Um, I think with a collective, I think there's two things about Greenham, which mean a lot of women's work is... in at the micro level, and at the macro level. And this is a generalisation, but nevermind. A lot of women's work is rendered invisible, because people think that elves did it, in the night, it happened magically with no actual input involved. And the thing about a lot of Greenham is that we did it on tuppence. It was women with no money. No time, women were carving, I mean, (if) you were talking about your mum? She had you. And women were carving time out of their lives that they did not have to spare. They were carving money out of their lives that they did not have to spare, they were carving emotional energy out of their lives that they did not have to spare. And all those women created something that changed things, it changed public policy at a national level. And not necessarily because, you know, I mean, Britain didn't go unilateralist and is unlikely to do anytime soon. But you create the conditions in which people make decisions in a different way than they would have before. And it changed the international situation as part of a larger whole. And it changed individual women to a massive extent, some of whom have then, many of whom have then gone on to create other things. Erm, it changed a way of working, the way I learned to work at Greenham, a collaborative way has shaped my entire life. And I believe it's done the same for a lot of other women. All those things of women who did not have the time who did not have the money who did not have the energy, and who did it anyway. Um, to have that as a well, you know, the idea that all that, that political movement would have happened without that work. It's not true. [[No.|Lorna Richardson No.]] [[I see.|Lorna Richardson No.]]

And so, why I am grateful for any initiative that records it is partly because, well, there were a number of reasons partly because elves didn't do it in the night. We did it. Erm, I did it, your mum did it. Loads of other women did it. The second is, we learnt from people who gone before us, sometimes well, sometimes not at all well. And sometimes we sort of learnt it along the way. And... it's helpful to.. I mean, one of the things that's hugely affected my relationship with looking at how Extinction Rebellion work is, you know, we have seen patterns before. And experience can be useful, experience. Because, you know, this is the most exhausting thing about all of this. It's not like you can, you can have a campaign, you can win and it's all fixed and you can go and have a rest and raise bees like Sherlock! You know, you know! It's just like and here we are again. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson Yeah.48576324587234587]] [[Goodness, yes.|Lorna Richardson Yeah.48576324587234587]] [[I'm so new to this.|Lorna Richardson Yeah.48576324587234587]]

And now even if the lNF I mean, that's not a failure in that the INF was in place for all that length of time. And the INF was not the only success of Greenham. Um, but we have to do this again and again and again, on so many funds on so many issues, and.. [[You don't want to reinvent the wheel.|Lorna Richardson You don't want to reinvent the wheel. ]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson You don't want to reinvent the wheel.edit ]]

We don't want to reinvent the wheel. And we and actually the nature it, it's I have been very fortunate in that I have been part of political movements, which won and so, erm, I'm quite cheerful about a lot of things and I'm absolutely bloody terrified at a whole bunch more. Absolute, I mean, I've, oof, anyway... that's, do you know, one of the most. Have you seen The Force Awakens? [[Yes.|Lorna Richardson Force Awakens]] [[No.|Lorna Richardson Force Awakens]]

And we and actually the nature it, it's I have been very fortunate in that I have been part of political movements, which won and so, erm, I'm quite cheerful about a lot of things and I'm absolutely bloody terrified at a whole bunch more. Absolute, I mean, I've, oof, anyway... that's, do you know, one of the most. Have you seen The Force Awakens? [[Yes.|Lorna Richardson Force Awakens]] [[No.|Lorna Richardson Force Awakens]]

Right. I took my teenage son and his teenage friend to see The Force Awakens in the IMAX at the Science Museum. [[Nice parenting, well done.|Lorna Richardson Nice parenting, well done.]] [[OK.. |Lorna Richardson Nice parenting, well done.]]

So yes, 70, 70 millimeter. And there was a point at which I thought I would just combust with joy. Because I saw Star Wars the first time round. [[Yeah. Me too.|Lorna Richardson Yeah. Me too.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lorna Richardson Yeah. Me too.]]

And there was General Organa, at Greenham. And you know, the, the rebel base was filmed at Greenham? [[No I didn't.|Lorna Richardson Oh right, okay.]] [[Yes.|Lorna Richardson No! Oh my goodness!]]

Ooh, did you not? Go and have another look, it's really, really, really distinctive. The, you know the rebel base where General Organa is doing her whole thing and lalalalala. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson Yeah.2362366]] [[No! Oh my goodness!|Lorna Richardson No! Oh my goodness!]]

Those are the silos at Greenham. They filmed them at Greenham. [[No! Oh my goodness!|Lorna Richardson No! Oh my goodness!]] [[Wow.|Lorna Richardson No! Oh my goodness!]]

And it was like these, I saw I saw Star Wars as a teenager. I was at Greenham as a teenager, and there was Leia running the resistance from Greenham, and every single hair on the back of my neck goes up and I'm like, oh my God, I've died and gone to heaven! [[That's so cool! |Lorna Richardson That's so cool! ]] [[Amazing.|Lorna Richardson That's so cool! ]]

And it was it was, of you know, they've CGId the back so it looks you're on some bloody alien planet but what, it was. Yes, yes! And actually Greenham is is a a you know meadow, wildlife sanctuary yada, yada, yada, and the rest of the world is in a total shit state and I'm absolutely terrified. But! We need not be without hope. And we can use what we have learned in the past and what we have done in the past. Not necessarily to repeat the past but to try and do the present even better. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson yeah 2398762398]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

So that's why we need it. And it's why we need um, biographies of women who died before Wikipedia became a thing. [[Yeah.|Lorna Richardson Yeah 938724974269]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

And it's why we need People's History. It's, it's, you know, all these things are not for the purposes of nostalgia. [[No.|Lorna Richardson no]] [[Of course.|Lorna Richardson no]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It's for the purposes of getting up and having to do it all fucking again. And do it well, and do it better. And to do it with heart and.. [[Knowledge. |Lorna Richardson Knowledge.]] [[Yeah, lovely.|Lorna Richardson Yeah, lovely.]]

And knowledge. Exactly. [[Yeah, lovely.|Lorna Richardson Yeah, lovely.]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

But yeah, do go watch The Force Awakens. [[Oh, I shall watch it with a new eye.|Lorna Richardson Oh, I shall watch it again with a new eye.]] [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Genuinely thrilling! Genuinely thrilling! [[Thank Lorna Richardson, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

What would you like to ask Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil? [[What er, first took you to Greenham? Why did you go there?|ASMM what er, first took you to Greenham? Why did you go there?]] [[ Do you think there was a relationship between the media's depiction of Greenham, and the way that most people who hadn't been thought about Greenham, and judged Greenham?|ASMM Do you think there was a relationship between the media's depiction of Greenham, and the way that most people who hadn't been thought about Greenham, and judged Greenham?]]

ANNEI SOANES: Well, actually, it wasn't Greenham that was my initial attraction. Um. What happened was, I was working for Harrods as a beauty therapist, and I was in Camberley town centre, I bumped into an old friend of mine, Stephanie Tunmore, who I think now works for Greenpeace, but I bumped into her, and we started chatting. And she started talking about how she had joined an organisation called Camberley CND. And I didn't have a clue what she was talking about. So I asked her what she meant, and she explained that it was the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, and when she said that there was something about the words that resonated with me, it felt like a right thing to be doing - to be disarming from nuclear weapons. So I turned up at a local Camberley CND meeting. And I remember when I went I was in my navy blue pleated skirt, and at that time, you know, in the ‘80s blazers were very fashionable for women, um, with my gold heeled shoes on, and there were all these people sitting you know, without any socks on and sandals and looking, in my opinion what looked a bit like a bunch of hippies, so I was quite sort of judgmental, because they were people that didn't look like me. [[(laugh)|ASMM laugh]] [[Keep listening quietly..||ASMM laugh]]

ANNEI SOANES: But er, there was a woman who was chairing the meeting. And at the time, I remember um, feeling so impressed by this woman, because she just held the group, and was very gentle and er, very inquiring of other people in the group. And I didn't quite know who she was, I just thought she was quite an impressive woman. And I noticed this man sitting next to her. Um, and what happened was, it turned out that those two people, this woman chairing the meeting, and this man sitting next to her, was someone called Marie Knowles and her husband John, and I thought it was quite interesting at that time that it was her that was chairing the meeting. I really liked that. Anyway, what happened was, um, that bunch of people turned out to be such a delightful bunch of people. And John and Marie in particular, were very welcoming, very challenging in their, in their um, thoughts about things, and I ended up being, err, I suppose I had the experience of questioning myself in a way that I hadn't questioned myself before, about the world, about politics about being the world of the woman. Anyway, what happened was having become part of that Camberley CND movement, we were protesting, we were demonstrating, we were doing things like there was a nuclear bunker that had apparently been built under the Civic Hall in Camberley. So we went on a protest and chained ourselves to these railings, I think we were, we were dressed as Suffragettes or something. But we would do things like, you know, be in the town centre, handing out leaflets, trying to raise people's awareness around the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. And what happened in the process of all of this, was that the discussion was very stimulating. Um. And got me thinking about lots of have different things, and when eventually we ended up going to Greenham, it was, it was not immediate it was on top of other demonstrations, and being part of what became a, a woman's consciousness raising group in Camberley, that was an offshoot of Camberley CND. So for me when I think of Greenham, it's not just about my experiences at Greenham common as a protester. It's, it was also about my experience of um, consciousness raising, around what it meant to be a woman. And political systems, really - it introduced me to the idea of systems thinking, and how everything has an impact, how everything has a ripple effect, how there is such a thing as the butterfly effect, and what I really - what I do remember thinking at the time was, I loved that feeling of being part of a movement where people all over the world were demonstrating about this single issue. That, that felt enormously important to me. It wasn't just us in Camberley CND, it wasn't just us in this country. I was part of a global movement that was about saying ‘No, this is wrong. I want my voice to be heard because this is wrong.’ [[Yes.. |ASMM Yes.]] [[May I ask about any individual actions that you remember - whether you took part in anything particularly, or whether you were ever arrested?|ASMM ask about any individual actions that you remember - whether you took part in anything particularly, or whether you were ever arrested? Or any things that sort of pop out around what did Greenham women actually did - when we say actions, when we say NVDA, what were the things you might have been personally involved in?]]

ANNEI SOANES: So in relation to Greenham, I can remember the first time I went to Greenham, you know, I was, I was so prejudiced, I was so naive. I, I, I thought, oh my god, what's it going to be like? Because I might meet lesbians. What was I going to do? What was I going to do if I met a lesbian! And also what, I might be arrested or something. So what happened was before we ended up going on any sort of demonstrations, we - I remember one particular weekend, I can't remember if I'd been to Greenham at that stage or not, but I, what stands out in my memory was there was one particular weekend, and it was called an NVDA workshop, that was over the course of a weekend. NVDA! I didn't have a clue what that meant. But of-course, it stands for non-violent direct action. And again, just, just the notion of that really appealed to me. So I went to this workshop, I was still working at Harrods um, as a beauty therapist on the top floor at the time. And I went to this workshop, and it completely blew my mind. From the point of view, it opened me up to other possibilities, both politically and personally. It opened me up to new ideas. It, it gave me the opportunity to reflect on my own behaviour, on how I interacted with other people, how I experienced other people. It opened me up to actually, as a woman, err, how I behave differently to men. And how useful was that to me? Why, why did I behave differently? So it opened me up on lots of different levels. So by the time I went to Greenham, it was almost like I’d, I'd had a background, I'd had an experience, I'd had some sort of education, in opening my mind to new experiences and new ideas that were not conventional. You know, I was a disco diva - I used to hang out in nightclubs, you know, dancing around my handbag with with my lipstick and false eyelashes on, you know, there I was with my high heels and, you know, dancing to Motown. This, this was a completely new experience for me. And when I actually went to Greenham I laugh because I still wore my pearl earrings! (Laughs). What I didn't do was was kind of wear makeup in the same way. I can remember taking my nail varnish off because somehow it didn't seem the right thing to do to have my nail varnish on. So it was almost as if at one point I was living this parallel life, wearing my you know, my, my dungarees or my - there was a kind of all in one suit what were they called? [[I think they are dungarees..|ASMM Boiler suit?]] [[Boiler suit?|ASMM Boiler suit?]] [[I don't know..|ASMM Boiler suit?]]

ANNEI SOANES: Yeah, so I was there I was in my turquoise boiler suit, with my rainbow badges, with my hair up and my pearl earrings on, and maybe a little bit of eyeliner that was you know, quite subtle. But no, no nail varnish. Because for me, I was going through that whole process of what does it mean then? What does it mean to be a woman in the world? What does it mean to to not be a Conservative with high heels and whatever else I thought it meant. You know, what is it, what's it like being in the world in a different kind of way? So at Greenham, I remember having a conversation sitting around a campfire with a woman, who was a lesbian. And I didn't know she was a lesbian. (Laughs). It was only afterwards that I kind of found out - I can't remember how I found out. But what, what really struck me was something about actually none of that stuff really, in the greater scheme of things - I mean, what does any of that stuff matter? It's an expression of how we are as women, you know, I was naive, I was what 24 or something, 25. There was lots I didn't know. And what you know, what that experience of Greenham gave me was an opportunity to learn about myself, and and other people. Um. I mean, as I'm talking, I'm thinking of all kinds of stories in my head - do you want me to continue, or should I stop here? [[I'd like to ask the same question to Margaret first, if that's OK? How did you arrive at Greenham, Margaret? What took you to Greenham?|ASMM How did you arrive at Greenham, Margaret? What took you to Greenham?]] [[Was Greenham a particularly non-judgy place, do you think?|ASMM Thank you, that’s amazing. Beautifully put, it's really lovely.]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: I arrived at Greenham, as I was about 35, I think at the time, with two young children, married, middle class Camberley. And my background had been that I was always against the bomb, the bomb was a big thing. And in our growing up, there was this Cuban.. there was a big thing about what what would happened, the nuclear bomb that that could destroy us all. And our older friends were beginning to say things like they weren't going to have children because they couldn't bring their children into such a terrible world. So we had a beginning of a consciousness as we were growing up, that there were terrible things going on. And at our local youth club, the leader said ‘Right, Aldermaston, we're all going on this march to Aldermaston’. And we thought it was the most exciting thing. And we bought the CND badges. And then our father, I was about 15 at the time, and my father forbidden, forbid us to go, and threw our badges on the boiler. So that was my first um, demonstration against authority, I think. (Laughs) I was gutted and I was really angry that we'd missed it, because it just sounded so exciting. I'm not sure the politics really struck us, but I remember always being against the bomb, and against nuclear weapons. And so CND was something we had kind of grown up with and it was this big, hippie thing, I suppose, which struck us has been ‘Well that’s good’. [[So not from within your family?|ASMM So not from within your family?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|ASMM So not from within your family?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Not within the family. Certainly not. No. I don't think my mother had an opinion, because obviously what father said went. But he was from, he'd been a prisoner of war in the er, so, so I'm sure, um, so his, his take on this would have been very clearly one about protecting his family. He fought for security, and he fought to protect us. Um, so the idea that we thought of, you know, banning the - our safety was absolutely outrageous. But of course, we were 15, so hey (laughs), so that was. So, we never went on the Aldermaston marches. Not until a lot later. And then being in Camberley, I heard through a friend that about CND, about the Camberley group. And so I joined with her. And it was really so different to anything I'd ever experienced, because having been on various committees, like, you know, the political liberals and Liberal Democrats, and then in um, oh the school ones, the... [[Keep listening quietly..|ASMM Like Board of Trustees or parent committees?]] [[Like Board of Trustees or parent committees?|ASMM Like Board of Trustees or parent committees?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Oh, the parent, teacher, PTA, those associate - those what have you, where we had our little committee meetings and our agendas. And these meetings just blew the whole thing apart, because they were so equal, and I think it was the equality that really, really struck me - the fact that everybody's view was encouraged and welcomed, whatever it was. And every body, I wasn't expected to take the goddamn minutes! (Laughs). Which was something that invariably, if you didn't wear a hat, you ended up making the tea or taking the minutes. If you wore a hat, that meant you were a bit more important as a woman. So there was that sort of hierarchy that just didn't exist. And that was amazing. So, um, different people led it, but on that occasion, it was Marie Knowles, and, and it was so equal, and everybody sat in a circle. Nobody deferred to anybody else. And it was just glorious, absolutely glorious, because it was so unlike anything I'd ever experienced. Um. And yeah, I felt a bit like a sort of middle class misfit, to certain extent, because on the whole everybody was a lot younger than me, and so I felt a bit old, and um, and also a bit dowdy, because they all looked gloriously hippie. Well, in a way ‘These are my people’! (Laughs). Because having been a sort of a hard working hippie, it just seemed like coming home to me, it was absolutely wonderful. And the way it was so equal and everybody chipped in, and everybody worked together. I loved it. So that was, that was how I joined. And of course it went on from there. [[So what were your first, very first impressions of going to, going to the actual Greenham common camp?|ASMM So what were your first, very first impressions of going to, going to the actual Greenham common camp?]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Ah, right. The first time we went was when um, the first time I went, was err, a night when the women had been arrested. And they all gradually came back to the camp during the day, and they were tired, very tired. And so we would go, in response to that, and guard them for the night. So it was - we were guarding the Greenham women so they could sleep, because they were often occasions when they were harassed - either by local people, or by the guards inside. So they couldn't just sleep. [[Do you know what sort of form the harassment took?|ASMM Do you know what sort of form the harassment took?]] [[Did you do that night watch together, and those sorts of things?|Did you do, did you do - was that called night watch? Did you do those together, those sorts of things?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Well, things like people would draw up - I remember on one - I remember specifically one thing that happened, and that was a motorbike drew up quite close. And there were two guys sitting on this motorbike. And suddenly it went very still in the camp, and they were watching. And, and then it's - a guy put his hand in his pocket, and everybody stiffened. And then he just just lit a fag, and off they drove. And I said ‘What was that about?’ And they said ‘Well, you just never know. You never know what they're going to do. Whether it's just somebody interested in what's going on, just a sightseer. Or whether that's a bomb in his pocket, and he's gonna chuck it out in here, or whether...’ They just didn't, they just did not know what was going to happen, or whether they'd be attacked in the night, and that sort of thing. So they were so brave, those women. And I felt in a way, like we were the, we were the frauds, because we didn't stay, we didn't live there. We lived near enough so we could visit, and so we used to go in response to, and when they needed a hand, and also on the food rotas, as well - especially in winter, when they could do some nice hot food. So, so we really got into it in that way. And obviously the big demos, and so we visited them very frequently. But those women who lived there were amazing. Um, and the things they’d sacrificed as well to be there. Just extraordinary. They were so brave. And so to be able to just go there and support them was brilliant. [[Did you do, did you do - was that called night watch? Did you do those together, those sorts of things?|Did you do, did you do - was that called night watch? Did you do those together, those sorts of things?]] [[Can you tell me about the different Gates at Greenham?|ASMM Can you tell me about the different Gates at Greenham?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Yes, in fact that was first time I really got to know Annei, because that was on my first time. And it was freezing, wasn't it? A very cold night - I don't think it was your first time I can't quite remember. ANNEI SOANES: I can't remember, Margaret, no. MARGARET MCNEIL: But Annei had so many clothes on. She, she was absolutely struggling to walk! (Laughs). And she sort of swung over and she says ‘It feels like I’ve got this gigantic sanitary towel on!’ (Laughs). And we got chatting - we were on these camp chairs or garden chairs, and we got chatting, and I can remember Annei saying at one point, because she was so glamorous and gorgeous, I felt completely out of her league. So I was a bit in awe of her, and because we really were a mixed bunch of people. (Laughs). Annei was so glamorous and such a gorgeous personality. And she, she said something, I've asked her a question, she said ‘Oh, that's a long story.’ And I just said ‘Oh well, we've got all night.’ And so we sat and talked for a lot of the night, and then we became very good friends. And it was a bit like that with everybody, the connections that you made. And so you know, some of my best friends are my Greenham friends from 35 years ago. [[That’s amazing.|ASMM That’s amazing.]] [[Annei, do you have.. what are your memories of those sorts of nights?|Do you have, what are your memories of those sorts of nights?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Yeah, absolutely brilliant. [[Annei, do you have.. what are your memories of those sorts of nights?|Do you have, what are your memories of those sorts of nights?]] [[Did Greenam chenge your politics at all? Or was that part of a general sense of how you operate?|ASMM Did Greenam chenge your politics at all? Or was that part of a general sense of how you operate?]]

ANNEI SOANES: Well, I think the night that Margaret's describing, I think my memory is that, I don't know if it was part of a night watch or whether it was part of a demo where we were there for the weekend, because we stayed overnight. I remember staying overnight. And the weather wasn't very good and it was quite rainy. And I wasn't an outdoor kind of girl. You know, I, I was more kind of gold lame, really, than waterproofs, so what happened was I decided to buy some gear to wear err, for this weekend, when I was going to be out, out in the fresh air, shall we say. And I of - course I didn't know what to buy. So I ended up buying this, this bright yellow err, pair of waterproof trousers, or well they weren't really waterproof, as such, they were kind of plastic trousers with this, this bright yellow plastic jacket to go with it that had a hood. And I think it was one of those sorts of things, if you'd been caught in a shower or a rainstorm, it would have probably been very effective. But then of course, what you do is you take it off and you're kind of in the clothes underneath. But um, it was really cold. And I thought well, rather than get undressed inside the tent, I could you sleep in this bright yellow suit. I looked a bit like a banana, as it was. I thought I could just sleep in it. That'll be.. that'll be good. But of-course I, because I was unfamiliar with this kind of stuff. What happened was, having slept in it I then woke up completely soaking wet (laughs), because of-course I'd been perspiring all night. So then it was raining outside, and I was wet inside. So it wasn't a particularly comfortable weekend. Um. I think you've got a photograph of that, actually, haven’t you! (Laughs). MARGARET MCNEIL: We have photographs of the outfit, we do! (Laughs). [[Keep listening quietly..|I’ll get those for the archive!]] [[Can you tell me about any of the specific actions you were involved in at Greenham?|ASMM Can you tell me about any of the specific actions you were involved in at Greenham?]]

ANNEI SOANES: Yeah, I mean, I remember, I can almost still remember the smell of the woodsmoke, actually. That you know, kind of people sitting around campfires, just talking about stuff.. And regards to the night watch, we had something called a telephone tree, we have something called Cruise Watch, as well. Which was a telephone tree that would alert people as to when the cruise missiles would come out of the base, and be transported around the country. So if that was going to happen we’d then get a call, and we'd whizz over there, and it could be at night or you know, we might go if we thought it was going to be expected, and that kind of stuff. And I remember one particular night it was in response to the Cruise Watch call, we all went over there, and were sitting there during the night. And we realised that if anything happened, and we were all sitting at the camp, or whatever gate we were at, that we wouldn't be able to - how would we alert people that, that it - the convoy would come out or whatever. So I took it upon myself in my yellow banana suit to, to hide in the bushes up the road all night. (Laughs). I don't quite know what I thought I was going to do in my head. I was like some sort of a sort of SAS kind of ninja - I was in my head I was gonna go and find a phone box. Because of course it was, you know, pre mobile phones, I was going to go and find a phone box, made sure I had some change - I was going to find, so that I could then alert the rest of the telephone tree. So that night I can remember looking longingly, you know, down the road at people sitting around the campfire, having a, you know, an interesting time talking to each other. And there was me further up the road hiding in a ditch all night, just in case this convoy appeared. Um. And it was quite, it was quite an interesting experience, because I realised how ill equipped I was, how this wasn't my life. And I was also feeling quite brave in this process. You know, this was, this was going to be my moment, you know, to really do something important for the peace movement. (Laughs). Thankfully, nothing happened. Um. And after, after about it must have got to about 5 o'clock in the morning or something, I then kind of - I think it started to get light and I made my way back to the camp itself. But what you were saying Margaret about night watch is I can remember what we would do is we would plan to go to do a night watch. And yeah, that the purpose was as a supportive gesture to, to those women. But I can equally remember feeling that that what I was doing was really important. It felt really important to kind of hold the fort to, for those women to get some sleep. Um. And I felt like you know a bit of a part timer. But also that sense of actually this is what I can contribute I, you know, I, I wasn't in a position in my life to go and do what they were doing. And if I'm honest, I don't know if I had it in me, I don't know if I would have been able to do it. But what was important was that sense of, actually, I am doing what I can, and I want to be involved, and I want to do what I can, according to what able - you know, it is that I'm able to do. Yeah. [[Were you involved in Cruise Watch, Margaret?|ASMM were you involved in Cruise Watch, Margaret?]] [[Did song play a big part in your memories of Greenham?|ASMM Did song plays a big part in your memories of Greenham?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Yes. Yes. [[Can you tell me a bit more about it, and your experience of it? I'm interested to know what was the point of it, what was it you would be trying to draw attention to?|ASMM Can you tell us a bit more about it. And your experience of it? I was interested to know what was the point of it, what was it you would be trying to draw attention to?]] [[Brilliant.|ASMM Brilliant]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: I think we were (laughs), the whole point of the cruise missiles coming out was that they would disappear - melt into the countryside. And so that, so the Russians wouldn't know where they were. Which we thought was hysterical because obviously these vast heavy convoys, these enormous trucks would suddenly roar out of the gates, that and all the roads around Newbury all around Greenham common - they were the best roads in the country. They were small roads. But they were magnificent. And they were probably the best ever, they were built for these for these convoys to rush out of Greenham. And so the point of Cruise Watch - so if we weren't, if women hadn't been arrested, we weren't looking after the women, then Cruise Watch would happen. And we'd all go out, and then we'd follow them to show that they couldn't just vanish into the countryside. [[Brilliant.|ASMM Brilliant]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: And this was when the men liked to get involved, because um, it was a bit more exciting. And because we've - we'd rather felt that Greenham was ours - women, it was a women's protest. And and I think the men felt a bit miffed occasionally. So they would come out with their cars bristling with antenna, to follow the signals of where it was going to be, and they would come and report to us (adopts gruff voice) ‘We’re off there, we’re off there.’ And we’d go okay ‘Whatever you like.’ (Laughs). And off they’d go. So, it was sort of quite exciting in a way. And I remember on one occasion that we, we were suddenly told oh, we'll need to go to Longmoor. ANNEI SOANES: Oh, I remember that! MARGARET MCNEIL: Yes, which was peculiar because my father was in the army - when we - when my dad was in the army, that was the first place I remember living in Longmoor camp. And so I thought right, we're off to Longmoor, okay. So we drove to Longmoor, and, and when we got there, there was nothing much to see. And they denied all knowledge. But there were a whole gang, I mean, there were hundreds of us, hundreds of people there. And this guy tried to get us into order. The, the Military Police came out to talk to women and what have you. And, and I told him, I said "Oh, I used to live here. And my father was - first officers' quarters down there.” And he went "Oh, really well you act as spokesperson." I said "No, no, no, we don't do that." And he says (adopts posh voice) "Well, no, if you would just act as spokesperson that would be terribly helpful." [[Oh would it!|ASMM Oh would it!]] [[Laugh and keep listening..|ASMM Oh would it!]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: And it was the funniest thing because we just thought we don’t do that! (Laughs). Like, I'm gonna say "I'm your spokesperson, everyone. Just talk to me." Yeah, right! [[So was that absolutely not how Greenham worked? Was it was a very lateral organisation, how did...|ASMM So was that absolutely not how Greenham worked? Was it was a very lateral organisation, how did...]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: It was very mixed. ‘Cause I think it was, it did attract quite different kinds of personalities. And so it wasn't the most smooth running of camps, because lots of personalities would have had different ideas about what they were there for. Um.. Err... So, yeah, and there were people - unfortunately, it also does attract people who have mental health issues, who tended to need looking after more than anything. But everybody, it was such a melting pot of people, which was, I think the diversity was one of its strengths because women from any background ended up there. And I don't believe there were judgments made - there may have been I don't know, I never felt judged on what I looked like, or what I sounded like or anything like that. We were just all there to muck in I think, and it was to, to make a point that - you know, the women are showing the people that this is where the bombs are. This is where the bombs live. And we're not having it. And a lot later in life, I can remember a young person saying to me "Well, what was the point? What a waste." I said "Well, we got rid of the bombs." They said "No you didn't." I said "Yeah, we did. Greenham women got rid of the bombs - they went." They said "No, no, that was nothing to do with you." I said "Do you honestly think that people's awareness would have been raised if the Greenham women hadn't been there? If all those women hadn't gone and been a thorn in the flesh of those people? And all the rumours about them, etc, etc. You know, for god's sake, why were they so scared of us? They had the bombs. (Laughs). And we were a bunch of really awkward women who were just pointing out that that's where the bombs were. And we didn't want them there." So it was quite extraordinary. [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I didn't feel judged at all at Greenham by the women. There was a strong sense of unity, a sense we're all here for um, a purpose. We all know what we're here for. We're welcoming of each other and I, I can remember um, being at the base and people would put ribbons and pieces of wool, or pictures on the fence to say ‘I was here’, and you know, I can remember looking at pictures of tiny children and grandmothers and families. And that's, that's what it was all about. It was, it was about this is humanity. This is the face of humanity. This is why we're here. We want, we want to protect the, the world we live in. And the judgment that I used to be aware of was, was particularly with older people, um, particularly with my mother's friends. They all had an opinion - my family had an opinion. It was as if I was not only doing something slightly eccentric, but it was wrong. What I was doing was really wrong. Because not only was I protesting against um, something politically, but I was also protesting against and serving as a bad example as to what it meant to be a decent young woman. What I was doing wasn't decent. Who did I think I was? Did I - was I one of those women that had burned my bra? Ho, ho ho. And the I think the the, the argument about the peace movement, and the argument around feminism, manifested at that time. Um. Because certainly I, I, I very much identified with much of what was being said by radical feminism. It made perfect sense to me. Actually, we do live in a patriarchy, there is lots that we are unconscious of. It's not until we start looking at what systems are in place, what we believe about ourselves what we believe about men, that we, we can start to address that. And Greenham was a place where, where feminist politics was discussed, and I can remember being judged harshly by people who were not involved. They would see it as odd. It would almost be dirty. You know, it was, it was, it would almost be like, I was doing something to hurt the rest of society. When actually, what for me what I was doing was doing something that was about equality, about justice, about non-violence, because the conclusion I reached was that feminism for me, and I still feel the same now, for me, feminism goes hand in hand with non- violence. And I know that there are feminists who would not agree with me on that level. But for me, that's what it means. It means how I hold myself in the world, how I interact with other people, how I leave my footprint, really. Um. That's certainly where it came from. And without my experience of Greenham, and talking about feminist politics in that context, without any men being there, I don't think I would have had the freedom in any other context to, to talk about it, to thrash out ideas. Because the other thing that came out of that that was profoundly important to me was the women of Camberley CND created a feminist group, a consciousness raising group, and actually it was, it was led by Marie.. [[The same Marie Knowles?|ASMM The same Marie Knowles!]] [[Keep listening quietly..|ASMM The same Marie Knowles!]]

ANNEI SOANES: Yeah. The same Marie Knowles. The same Marie Knowles that was the chair of Camberley CND, yeah. She, she, she kind of kind of suggested that actually what we could do is have this consciousness raising group, which is, um, which is what happened - because you went to that didn't you, Margaret? MARGARET MCNEIL: I was rather on the edge of it because um, I was not quite so flexible because having small children - they were 2 and 5 at the time, limited the scope of what I was able to do. But I used to escape every so often, and join in. Yes, and I ended up realising how very far behind I was in the respects of feminism. I was at the angry stage, and it's not fair stage, and most, most people were way beyond that! (Laughs). I had a little way to go. And so I moved on enormously - at least I feel, I felt as if I did, because I was um, made so welcome. And it was just such a safe loving group to be with. And, and I agree with Annei that also, it was a good example of the men doing the women's work while the women got on with the demonstrating. So the women would go, and they would be off, and the men would look after the children, do the cooking, generally take care of everything that was going on back at the home, while the women went and demonstrated. Err, because Greenham was theirs. And I really appreciated that, the fact that they - it wasn't hijacked. Um. There wasn't an attempt to say "Well, we'll do it tonight dears." But no, so, so there was a really really good feeling about that. Yeah. ANNEI SOANES: And in relation to the Camberley CND women's raising, consciousness raising group - it was eye opening for me, um, in the sense that we would talk about not only politics, feminist politics, we’d talk about kind of issues that felt really important, whether it be sexism, or pornography, or racism, you know, what did that mean? How did it manifest? How are we being that actually on some level was anti racist? Or how were we internally sexist? You know, what were we carrying internally that was manifesting that in ways that we weren't aware of? So, so talking about all that stuff was really interesting as well. And what I forgot to say was that NVDA workshop, that non-violent direct action workshop that I did - after I did that, I went into Harrods on the Monday morning and I handed my notice in. [[Really?|ASMM Really?]] [[Did either of you take your children to Greenham?|ASMM That’s lovely. I was going to ask if you ever took your children to Greenham?]]

ANNEI SOANES: Because I realised that I didn't want to be part of propping up that, that system on some level. Um. And the err, the, now what was I going to say? The workshop, prior to that, I can remember I used to have, I used to have Fridays off. And sometimes we used to go - we used to take food over, so we'd go on the food run. So we'd make like macaroni cheese or cauliflower cheese, and take it over for you know, at lunchtime. And so on a Thursday night I used to take my nail varnish off so I had no nail varnish when I went to Greenham, and put my boiler suit on when we took the food across, and then I'd you know, paint my nails back for, for Saturday morning. So I was living this double life. And I realised after that weekend that I could not - I would not do that anymore. So I handed my notice in, and decided to take a different course in my life. And here I am, much later on - all those years later, and all of my learning of that time has influenced the rest of my life. And that, that philosophy around non-violence, that questioning, that recognition of the power of the human spirit, that sense of us being interdependent, but not codependent - what it means to have healthy relationships, what's my view of the world, existentialism, whatever, you know, all of that stuff grew out of that time for me. And actually laid the foundation for me to want to be a psychotherapist. So that led to my working in an industry where I could use my makeup skills in a different way err - for period dramas or whatever, in television, that then led to my um, that gave me the means to train as a psychotherapist. But it's actually - what I hold now in my career, in my work as a psychotherapist, all of that actually - all the seeds of that came from that time in the peace movement at Greenham, as part of being in a women's group, it came from that time. And as I say that I feel quite tearful thinking about that, that tells me of the profound effect that it had on me, and I am eternally, eternally grateful and um, pleased that I was, I was able to be part of something so profoundly important for women. And you know, when I look at young women in the world today, I, I find myself being very respectful of those young women who are campaigning who are still questioning. But also I'm left with immense sadness, that actually, the work that I feel that I put in around feminism when I was in my 20s, isn't being picked up by younger women - women are still being exploited in lots of different ways. Women are still being put down, women's voices are still being silenced. You know, and I feel sad that there aren't more younger women kind of carrying on the banner really. My, my legacy was of the Suffragettes, you know, I almost feel their blood in my veins, I feel part of that movement. And I feel sad sometimes that I don't always have the same sense that it's being carried on now. [[Annei, could you talk a bit more about why you think it's important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations?|ASMM Could you explain why you think it's important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations?]] [[Margaret, could you talk about why you think it's important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations? If you do?|ASMM Why do you think it is important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations? If you do?]]

ANNEI SOANES: Because I think it not only honours what it means to be a woman in the world, it represents questioning of ourselves, of society, of the world in general. The personal is the political. So that's, that's kind of the, the centre of it for me. And I think as human beings, we always need to question that. Who am I as the person living in the world? What do I contribute? How do I impact? What do I need? How can we build a better world, a better future for generations that follow us? Um. And I think there's something about women's history that historically has always been forgotten. So it feels important to remember this, you know, and it, it reflects my sense of at the time, I want my name - you know, it's almost like invisibly written. I want my name to appear, you know, on that list of people that says "I do not think nuclear weapons is the right way to go", you know. Um. So for me, it's about that - it’s being part - it's putting my name to this invisible charter in ways, that says "I was there, I witnessed this, this is important", you know, on on some level, I contributed to that, that feels important to me. Because we all, we're all responsible in this world for contributing, we're all responsible for ourselves. And to some extent, we're all responsible for other people. We have to make ourselves accountable - we, we, we share this world, so that that personal sense is carried on to that political sense. [[Margaret, could you talk about why you think it's important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations? If you do?|ASMM Why do you think it is important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations? If you do?]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Well, I really welcome this - the chance to talk about it from our personal point of view, because um, I think it was um, so misrepresented at the time as being a gaggle of unruly women, who - shrill lesbians - who were very - well in their boiler suits for heaven's sake, what did they look like? And so it was just a gaggle who were causing a lot of trouble for.. and.. and, and the fact that then, the people in Greenham hated them - they didn't, some did. So I think they were really misrepresented. I think it's really important that lots of women's voices who are involved in it are heard, as to what it meant to them, to be part of a huge groundswell of opinion amongst women to say "Enough, this is enough. This is obscene - shipping in your great big bombs, your cruise missiles to Britain, so that you can use us as an airstrip to send your bombs off to another country that you would have no control over." Because make no mistake, make no mistake, Britain didn't have any control over those bombs - they were America's bombs. And so therefore, we were giving up our liberty and freedom to America, to choose to bomb the world. Um. And so in our way, we were saying “No, we're not having it.’ We refused to put up with it. So that group of women were highlighting the obscenity of the whole nuclear industry, of weapons and saying "No, we're not putting up with it. We have so many better ways of using our wealth and distributing our money, and being nice to each other." And so I would never ever want people to forget what an amazing movement it was. And the fact that so many different people could come together and rise up and say ‘You know, we're really strong’ - some of our songs were saying how strong we were, we are women, we won't be moved, etc. And it felt really, really powerful from a point of absolute powerlessness. And I would want that message to carry on to women everywhere, that joining together into something that you really are passionate about, and rising up and just working together and showing the rest of the world um, what's going on is one of the most powerful things you can do. And that - huh, what, what would be the occasion that they would rise up next? I don't know. Um. But I want them to know that that's what they can do. (Laughs). [[Annei, could you talk a bit about why you think it's important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations?|ASMM Could you explain why you think it's important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

MM: No, I never took my children to Greenham, and one of the reasons was because they are boys, and there was a kind of feeling about this is a women's camp. This is a women's demo. Um. And I chose to respect that. And I knew that most people would probably be absolutely fine. They were little boys. But I did not want to raise any sensitivities about it needlessly. And I was lucky enough that I had a husband who was, was going to care for them. So I didn't have any childcare problems. So err, I didn't take them and I have to say they're furious! (Laughs). As adults, they are so disappointed that I never took them. They would have loved to have gone and seen what these women got up to - these women who cooked, and went out in the middle of the night. And weren’t there when they woke up in the morning, because their dad was looking after them, or somebody else was looking after them. And they actually were quite miffed about it. Missed opportunity! [[Did you ever have any relationships or conversations, or anything that struck you with the men on the base while you were there?|ASMM Did you ever have any relationships or conversations, or anything that struck you with the men on the base while you were there?]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: Err, I, well, I think that, that it was considered shabby, you see. I think us as women, and our behaviour was considered shabby, and therefore not to be taken seriously. And I, you know, certainly for me, there was a sense that err, media, the media, err, was judging us because we weren't really kind of living up to the expectations of what a decent woman is. We were breaking the rules, we were... [[So what was the expectation, as you felt it was given to you?|ASMM So what was the expectation and as you perceived, as you felt it was given to you?]] [[What were the expectations?|ASMM What were the expectations?]]

ANNEI SOANES: We were speaking about things that were unspeakable. Um... [[So what was the expectation, as you felt it was given to you?|ASMM So what was the expectation and as you perceived, as you felt it was given to you?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|ASMM So what was the expectation and as you perceived, as you felt it was given to you?]]

ANNEI SOANES: Well, for a start, we were you know, certainly the Greenham women, obviously they couldn't have access to, you know, showers or whatever. So they might have been a bit smelly - as anybody would be if they'd been outside for a few days without having access to water. They were seen as grubby. I mean, I remember one of my mother's friends actually, um, when he was ridiculing me about what I was doing, he said "And you know what, those women?" He said "They've ruined Greenham." I said "What do you mean?" He said "The wildlife." Do you know, he said "There's no wildlife around Greenham now, nothing. Why? Because of the women." [[And the huge American air base!|ASMM And the huge American air base!]] [[RM: How about you, Margaret? Did you feel that...|ASMM RM: How about you, Margaret? Did you feel that...]]

ANNEI SOANES: I know, exactly! But, but that's an example of how people made judgments based on nothing. You know, it was, it was, there were lots of fantasies around it. Um. And these women, what were they doing? Why weren’t they at work? Or why weren't they looking after their children? Why weren't they at home looking after their families? Because that's what women do. You know, these, these women were breaking the rules - they were, they were being oppositional to to what was judged decent. [[[[RM: How about you, Margaret? Did you feel that...|ASMM RM: How about you, Margaret? Did you feel that...]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Yes, definitely. I think we were interfering with men's work. This is what men do. What do women know about warfare and security? So the fact that we'd risen up against - and, I guess they might have taken it personally. I hope so. (Laughs). Because there were some boring old farts out there. One of my husband's relations - he was a civil servant, and he used to take me to one side and warn me that we were being infiltrated - women were being infiltrated by undesirables. [[Really?|ASMM Really2?]] [[So who did they think might be infiltrating?|ASMM So who did they think might be infiltrating?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: ‘Really! How awful.’ Whereas to my mind, the undesirables who’d infiltrated us were the Americans with their sodding bombs! I'm sorry I mustn’t swear. [[Storm off, offended!|Campfire]] [[That’s fine!|ASMM That’s fine!]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: So, um, and it was this, their shock that we might be infiltrated by ne'er do wells who might want information about how they could steal the bombs, it was hilarious. [[So who did they think might be infiltrating?|ASMM So who did they think might be infiltrating?]] [[Communists, maybe?|ASMM Communists, maybe?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Oh, well, foreigners obviously... [[Communists, maybe?|ASMM Communists, maybe?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|ASMM Communists, maybe?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Well, people who wanted the wherewithal to steal the plutonium, or uranium, or whatever ghastly thing it is that makes these bombs - terrorists basically who are going to be amongst us, so that when we broke in, they could break in and steal a bomb or something. I mean, it was absolutely hilarious. And, and also, I was at an evening class once and this - and I said, I was rather tired because I'd spent the previous night at Greenham, and she said ‘Oh, my goodness, are they all lesbians?’ And the teacher - he sort of said ‘How the hell should she know?’ And I thought, oh my hero - exactly! Why - what is this? So yes, there was this huge amount of misinformation. So we - all of the women could be discredited because we were lesbians, we’d left our families to fend for themselves, etc, etc. So therefore, we were the dregs of humanity. So yes, they had lots of material that they could use against Greenham women. The press, of-course enjoyed every minute of it, in the same way that they do now, with Brexit, and with Muslims, and other outrageous acts. So yes, we were just a laughing stock to a great extent. Um. But the fact we won! (Laughs). Kind of trumps it! ANNEI SOANES: I think, I think that that notion that we didn't know what we were talking about, was, was um, was very strong, you know, and actually, for me, I was holding a philosophical position. And because I didn't have access to all the facts in the way that the government or the military might have information, it was as if the information that I had about, you know, the world and human relationships and what we want in our world, from a philosophical position - it was as if that didn't count. And, but I think, I don't feel anti-military. I think that - even then I didn't feel anti-military, I felt that people who were in the military were people of honour, they, they were holding those roles because they did care about people and their country. And I actually felt angry on their behalf, because I felt they were having to defend something that was morally wrong. And they had no power in that. So, um, but I think that historically, that's always happened, and it's still happening now. You know, women's opinions about things are still being devalued. We still live in a world where women's voices aren't being heard in the boardroom, where you know, you only have to think about the MeToo movement - it highlights what women have have had to put up with throughout their life. And, you know, I think it's still happening, that there is still sexism in the world that we live in. It's still happening in parliament. You know, when, when people are reported - when the media reports on something, they still talk about a woman's age, or what she's wearing. When do they ever do that with a man? They.. they come at it from a different angle. It's still happening, it's still happening. [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: I didn't. MARGARET MCNEIL: I remember the first night I was there, and I'd.. because I'd never been, and it was dark by the time we got there. And so I thought, well, I'll just go along and see what the fence is like. So I walked along the fence and I was just sort of walking along, and I suddenly realised to my horror that there was a guy inside shadowing me with his rifle. Because I was - and I thought, well, at first I was quite frightened. So I sort of scuttled back to our crowd and then I thought this is laughable, this poor chap is reduced to stalking this middle aged woman! (Laughs). You know, because I might be a threat to him and his bombs. So there was that. I remember one time when we were there, and we we did get chatting - I can't quite remember how it happened. But the guys inside, they were new to their duty, the military police or whichever troops they were that were guarding the base. And it was a day time, one of the weekends, I think, when we went on a demo there. And they'd come from Ireland, and they were Irish soldiers for heaven's sake, which seemed really bizarre in the circumstances - that we had Ireland going on. And we had Greenham going on, and Irish soldiers were over here. And they were homesick. So we sang Danny Boy to them. (Laughs). And it felt like quite a moment at the time. Err, because yeah, they were just doing their job. The bigger question to me at the time was why would somebody choose to do that job, I guess? I wondered what kind of 18 year old young man would want to join an association that trains you to kill people? [[Um, yes I’ve always wondered that as well.|ASMM Um, yes I’ve always wondered that as well.]] [[How did they receive the Danny Boy?|How did they receive the Danny Boy?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Yeah, so that seems to me a bizarre thing to want to be - in the same way I wonder why people young people want to become police women and men, because it smacks of being a bit scared of anything other other than law and order and complete control. So yeah um... [[How did they receive the Danny Boy?|How did they receive the Danny Boy?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Oh, they, they thought it was really sweet. (Laughs). [[That’s lovely.|ASMM That’s lovely.]] [[Did the same soldiers stay, or did they change often?|Do you know that they had to change - they had to rota them every 6 weeks, according to the woman I've spoken to, because the soldiers would become sympathetic to the Greenham women. Because they were...]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Yes, they thought it was very sweet. [[Did the same soldiers stay, or did they change often?|Do you know that they had to change - they had to rota them every 6 weeks, according to the woman I've spoken to, because the soldiers would become sympathetic to the Greenham women. Because they were...]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: I remember hearing stories.. I remember hearing stories about men who, um, who, who were sympathetic to what we were doing. And um, I heard stories of people leaving the Army, or being moved on or whatever.So I mean, how can it not affect people? [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: God yes! [[Do you want to tell me a little bit about that?|ASMM Yeah. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?]] [[Lovely!|ASMM (Laughs). That’s lovely.]]

ANNEI SOANES: Well, that - from my memories are that it could be both joyous, but also very moving. So, I mean song is an immensely powerful way of uniting people, and giving them a voice to express themselves being part of the whole. Um. So I learned some good songs, I learned some variations on songs. I mean, it was quite a creative place. You know, there was one particular gate that was all about, you know, arts and crafts as it were. Um, and I remember a lot of drum playing and singing going on, and people used to take instruments. So yeah, I mean, it was - it on occasions had a bit of the festival spirit. There was a sense of celebration around it, it wasn't all.. it.. certainly for me, my experience was that it wasn't all about being angry about the government and what they were doing - it was also a place of celebration, and celebrating life. And yeah, singing was an important part of that. Because it rouses the spirit doesn't it? It gets people going. It gets people on side. We all feel like we’re literally singing from the same page. (Laughs). MARGARET MCNEIL: Yeah, my son was at school - they were doing Frere Jacques, and the teacher said ‘There's lots of different versions of Frere Jacques, does anybody else know any different versions?’ And 5 year old Nick, and he said ‘Yes, I know one, it’s (sings) We are women. We are women. We are strong. We are strong. We say no, we say no, to the bomb, to the bomb.’ (Laughs). And his teacher who was 6’ in her jackboots from South Africa, lovely, lovely woman. And she just said ‘Um, I'm not surprised.’ (Laughs). [[(Laugh) That's lovely!|ASMM (Laughs). That’s lovely.]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: But we had lots of songs - I don’t know if I can remember them - something about you can't kill the spirit. (ANNEI SOANES & MARGARET MCNEIL sing). ‘You can’t kill the spirit, she is like a mountain, old and strong, she goes on and on and on. You can’t kill the spirit.’ ANNEI SOANES: And that would just go on in a round, and people would kind of join in. But you know, that's that's all part of the tradition, isn't it - of the protest movement, throughout history. That's how, that's been part of protest, hasn't it? That singing has been part of protest. [[Yeah.|ASMM Yeah2]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: And that happened at Greenham. [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: The first thing I think of is.. it wasn't at Greenham, because you know, it continued outside of Greenham. Um, what I mentioned earlier about chaining myself to err, to the railings. And I remember um, the local press came, and they took some photographs and afterwards they said "Oh, it's okay. You can let yourself go now. You know, we've got the photo." "No, we are chained. This is a demonstration. This is for real. We have chained ourselves with - this isn't just about the picture." So I remember sitting there, being there quite uncomfortable for the rest of the afternoon, chained up. [[What were people’s reactions, not just the press, but people going past?|ASMM What were people’s reactions, not just the press, but people going past?]] [[Excellent. Thank you. Margaret, any memories of actions or demos or anything you...|ASMM Excellent. Thank you. Margaret, any memories of actions or demos or anything you...]]

ANNEI SOANES: Well, it was interesting. A lot of people could be sympathetic, you know, they'd be cheering us on, or they'd be laughing at us, or there would be men driving past shouting obscenities out of the window - very mixed result. We, I certainly don't remember feeling in any physical danger. But I think, but I think the fact that we were wearing kind of costume - Victorian costume - it might have been on International Women's Day or something. It, you know, it was a spectacle I guess. But the other, the other actions that you know were, were very prominent - were being out in Camberley town centre, you know, leafleting, doing all the kind of groundwork that, that happens in any sort of um, movement. That's, that's about wanting to raise people's awareness about stuff. Personally, I wasn't, um, I was never arrested. I was never in threat of that. But also, I was one of those people who was very aware that if I, if I was in that position, you, you know, it would be very difficult for me to, to be in because of what was - what what was happening in the rest of my life. So I didn't take risks, I suppose as some women might have done, I had to do what I could, I had to do what I can. But I can remember blockading somewhere - I can't remember where it was we were blockading. And literally sitting on the floor, arm in arm, we weren't going anywhere. And the police kept trying to, to move us, and they would peel people away from the edges. And they'd go away, but then they would come back at a different part of it. So it would be - we would be like rows of people sitting on the floor, arm and arm, you know, in non-violent direct action. [[Wow!|ASMM Wow!]] [[And when you say non-violent direct action in that blockade, does that mean you behave physically in a very specific way?|ASMM And when you say non-violent direct action in that blockade, does that mean you behave physically in a very specific way?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Oh, lots and lots of memories, but nothing that I did specifically because, again, like Annei, I wasn't in a position to get arrested because my husband would have been furious. (Laughs). And it was walking a bit of a tightrope at that time anyway, about how much support I was going to get on this. So, um, no, I didn't want to get arrested. But we were really there to support people who either had been arrested, um, or just to support the women to live there. Um, so no, it - there was no heroism (laughs), wasn't a hero. I think the nearest I got to being arrested was once when we were driving away from a demo, and realised that there was a woman up a tree inside the fence with policemen all around her underneath, and I went out and got the camera, and I was taking photographs of her and she told me she was she Sheila, and she was from Scunthorpe. And that she, she couldn't get down the tree because she was a bit dizzy. And the policemen were trying to get her down. And then suddenly I realised it was the policemen had run outside and they were chasing me. And I just sort of ran up this bank and jumped into the car and drove off. So that was a bit of a shaky moment because I thought, what are they going to do - they’re going to impound my camera so I can’t have a photograph of Sheila from Scunthorpe up a tree? And so that was about as exciting as it got for me. I think it was just a question of just being there as much as we could. And just doing - quietly doing the bit. Singing as loudly as we liked, and being as noisy as we liked, but just persistently being there, and not ever going away! [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: And putting things on the fence, and singing. [[And when you say non-violent direct action in that blockade, does that mean you behave physically in a very specific way?|ASMM And when you say non-violent direct action in that blockade, does that mean you behave physically in a very specific way?]] [[Excellent. Thank you. Margaret, any memories of actions or demos or anything you...|ASMM Excellent. Thank you. Margaret, any memories of actions or demos or anything you...]]

ANNEI SOANES: Yeah, we were sitting on the ground, kind of cross legged, linked arms, so it was difficult to separate us. And we weren't going anywhere. So, you know, however many times we were told to move... [[You’d come back in?|ASMM You’d come back in?]] [[And when they carried you, did you have a way of, was there something about being carried, did you, how did you, how did you move when they tried to move you?|ASMM did you have a way of, was there something about being carried, did you, how did you, how did you move when they tried to move you?]]

ANNEI SOANES: We weren't going anywhere. So if the police peeled people off from the edges, they would get replaced, you know, in the line behind kind of thing. It was a continual process. [[And when they carried you, did you have a way of, was there something about being carried, did you, how did you, how did you move when they tried to move you?|ASMM did you have a way of, was there something about being carried, did you, how did you, how did you move when they tried to move you?]] [[Excellent. Thank you. Margaret, any memories of actions or demos or anything you...|ASMM Excellent. Thank you. Margaret, any memories of actions or demos or anything you...]]

ANNEI SOANES: Well, people did it individually. In terms of, if you like, the spirit of NVDA, it is about showing no resistance. It is about being a dead weight, it is about kind of being dragged along the floor, or you know, in other words, not doing anything, that, that represented violent action. It was about the power of non violence. You know, it was about holding the presence, and saying no. [[Excellent. Thank you. Margaret, any memories of actions or demos or anything you...|ASMM Excellent. Thank you. Margaret, any memories of actions or demos or anything you...]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Orange Gate was my favourite. They had, different gates had different vibes. Yellow was the main entrance, so we were doing the - they called it Alpha, Beta, Charlie, Delta. ANNEI SOANES: I don't remember that. MARGARET MCNEIL: We called it Yellow, Orange, Red. And so we were rainbow colours, the gates, but they were definitely the... [[The military had their own?|ASMM The military had their...]] [[And why was Orange your favourite?|ASMM And why was Orange your favourite?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Their own, yes, of course. And so it started at Yellow, and then it went round to Orange. And that was kind of round a corner, which had quite a lot of space around it. So we used to go there a lot. [[And why was Orange your favourite?|ASMM And why was Orange your favourite?]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: There was something laid back about it. I think that's where the creche was as well, so the children were brought there, there was a creche there on the demo days. Green was very musical, Red was quite militant, shall we say. So there were different kinds of vibes. [[And places you might fit?|ASMM And places you might fit?]] [[Do you remember that, Annei?|ASMM Do you remember that, Annei?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Well, just places where you just felt more you somehow - I don't know. [[That’s lovely.|ASMM That’s lovely2]] [[Do you remember that, Annei?|ASMM Do you remember that, Annei?]]

ANNEI SOANES: No, I don't. I don't, I don't remember that too much. But um, yeah, I think partly it was because, because it was it felt circular. If I didn't quite - it's a bit like hands on a clock. You know, or the symbols on a clock. I just knew I was around Greenham, I didn’t necessarily know where I was actually if I’m honest! [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Yeah. [[Do you remember that, Annei?|ASMM Do you remember that, Annei?]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: There was one really, really big demo called Embrace the Base - that was really powerful, because we literally were standing next to each other all the way around the base, and we did embrace. It was surrounded by women. And you know, just just that sense of everybody coming, really. People from all over the world. It wasn't just this this country. [[Wow really?|ASMM Wow really?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|ASMM Wow really?]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: There was a big Quaker presence there. The Quaker women were absolutely gorgeous. And they were just so peaceful and so gentle, and they were a real big presence there. ANNEI SOANES: Yeah, I'd forgotten about that, actually. That was really important to me. That was the first time I met Quakers. And in fact, years later when I went on to get married, I got married in a Quaker church. And, you know, my discovery of the Quakers was at Greenham, was part of the peace movement. Because the thing about Quakers they seem to - they live what they believe. For them, the political is the personal, and they quietly just get on with stuff. [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: Well for me, yeah, my left wing politics definitely grew out of my experience of Greenham, and radical feminism. Absolutely, absolutely. MARGARET MCNEIL: Well, I'm slightly different in that I don't, I'm not left wing - I’m radical. I'm a Liberal Democrat, and I have been for many years and I was before I came to Camberley and joined Camberley CND. And to me, it seemed the sanest choice at the time, because neither the Conservatives nor Labour actually did anything to get rid of the bombs. They never actually decelerated them. They just kept on going with the nuclear option. So I couldn't trust either of them to, to actually represent me in something that was really important to me. And so one of the reasons I became a liberal and then a Liberal Democrat was because they were the one party that actually said no bombs, no nuclear. And they were absolutely clear about it. And they still are. So, and then I found that a lot - everything else, their principles, their basic beliefs, I agree with them. So it's very much to do with equality. [[So, Margaret, yours sort of started, yours solidified a place you were already in?|ASMM So yours sort of started, yours solidified a place you were already in?]] [[So for you Annei, Greenham changed..|ASMM Whereas for you Greenham changed...]]

MARGARET MCNEIL: Yes. [[So for you Annei, Greenham changed..|ASMM Whereas for you Greenham changed...]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

ANNEI SOANES: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I went from from one end to the other. Yeah. [[So, Margaret, yours sort of started, yours solidified a place you were already in?|ASMM So yours sort of started, yours solidified a place you were already in?]] [[Thank Annei Soanes and Margaret McNeil, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

What would you like to ask Lyn Barlow? [[How did you end up at Greenham?|Lyn Barlow How did you end up there?]] [[I'd love to know how you, how the nonviolent direct action worked, I’d sort of like to ask you to explain it, I suppose.|Lyn Barlow I'd love to know how you, how the nonviolent direct action worked, I’d sort of like to ask you to explain it, I suppose.]]

''"Like a Mountain / Can't Kill The Spirit" by Naomi Littlebear, covered by Christina Li.'' Nobody can push back an ocean It’s gonna rise back up in waves And nobody can stop the wind from blowing Stop a mind from growing Somebody may stop my voice from singing But the song will live on and on You can’t kill the spirit She’s like a mountain Old and strong She lives on and on Nobody can stop a woman from feeling She has to rise up like the sun Somebody may change the words we’re saying But the truth will live on and on You can’t kill the spirit She’s like a mountain Old and strong She lives on and on [[Sing another song.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/like-a-mountain.mp3" autoplay>

''“We Work For The Russians by the women of Greenham Peace Camp, covered by Claire Ingleheart.'' We work for the Russians for tuppence a day. They ask us to stay here, And that's why we stay. We drink lots of vodka and that's why we're gay, hey! [[Sing another song.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/We-Work-For-The-Russians-Claire-Ingleheart.mp3" autoplay>

''"Smoke Gets In Your Eyes", sung by Jane Griffiths, Judy Harris and Isabella Tracy in interview.'' The policeman said to me, As he poured water on my tea. Aaaaah. This land is military, Kept exclusively, For plea, No... This land is MOD, Kept exclusively For police and military. Oh, when you joined the force, Was it to run through gorse? Aaaaah. 12 men in a van, With a watering can, Is that how you began? The policeman he replied, As he kicked the logs aside... Aaaaah. At first I had my doubts, But they tell so many lies, Smoke gets in your eyes. [[Sing another song.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/Smoke-Gets-in-your-Eyes.mp3" autoplay>

''"Oh Holloway", to the Tune of "Danny Boy". Lyrics from The Greenham Songbook"'' We have no recording of this song - we would love to hear yours! Oh Holloway Whose 4 walls surrounds us Women locked up And what have we done But one day we'll be free Then we'll join hands together For then we'll know the struggle has been won. OH Holloway Where the living is dreary Food like poison Got no rights at all But we'll keep on singing Till the day we leave here They cannot silence us at all. [[Sing another song.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

''"Frere Jaques", Alternate Version. Lyrics remembered by Margaret McNeil"'' We have no audio recording of this song - we would love to hear yours! We are Women, we are women, We are strong, we are strong, We say No, We say No, To the bomb, to the bomb. [[Sing another song.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Right, erm, I spent my teenage years in care. I came from a really dysfunctional family. Um, I left care at 18. And eventually - I'd left school with no qualifications. Eventually, I ended up going to an FE college to get O-Levels. And it was 1982. And I became involved with a student union. And we planned a trip to Greenham. So that was the first time I'd ever been. Um, and it was on a big mass demonstration - it wasn't Embrace the Base, because I remember that was later. Um, but I remember going off on my own where we got dropped off. And literally, the first camp that I came across was Yellow Gate. And there was this American woman there called Arlene. And she was just incredible. She made me feel so welcome. But she also challenged me to think in ways that I hadn’t thought before. And now looking back on it, I know it's a corny adage, but when I left, the message ‘Carry Greenham Home’ really meant something, because I couldn't just return back to the life that I was leading. I knew that something had changed. [[Was this all in the very first visit?|Lyn Barlow Was this all in the first - very first visit?]] [[Wow.|Lyn Barlow Wow.]]

Yes, very first visit. [[Wow.|Lyn Barlow Wow.]] [[Why do you think it's important for Greenham to be remembered by subsequent generations?|Lyn Barlow why do you think it's important for Greenham to be remembered by subsequent generations?]]

And it had a huge impact on me - seeing the base, up and personal - I'd never taken part in anything that was women only before. So that was incredible. And also, I - although I wasn't very politically aware, I had been politicised in some ways during - whilst I'd been in care - I'd been very rebellious, ran away, got into trouble with the police. Quite a number of the kids I grew up with, specially the boys ended up in the forces. And when I left care it was around the time of the Falklands. And I remember that I started having nightmares about war. And then with nuclear weapons I started having nightmares about the possibility of nuclear war. And going to Greenham presented a way that I could deal with that fear. Because if I acted, and showed my position, it actually helped me deal with the fear. [[I'm interested that you said that there was something very specific about it being something that was women only. How did that feel different? And what do you think was so specific about it?| Lyn Barlow I'm interested that you said that there was something very specific about being something that was women only - what, what was, how did that feel different? And what do you think was so specific about it?]] [[Did it make you feel better, or more questioning about.. what were the relationships like with the men that you would have come across at camp?|Lyn Barlow Did it make you feel better, or more questioning about - what were the relationships like with the men that you would have come across at camp?]]

Well, it quite surprised me because, in care, I'd levitated towards boys, because I'd been badly bullied by a lot of the girls. So I was much more happy kicking a football, climbing a tree, running away, whatever. So I'd never actually done anything, women only. But I'd always had, I think, um, a healthy disrespect for male authoritarian figures, because they reminded me of my father. So I'd always rebelled against that. And there’d been women who worked at the Children's Home who were really strong characters, - independent women. Some of whom I kept in touch with. So Greenham - it, it challenged me, because I was, on one level, I was really drawn to the fact that it was women only - especially the reasons why it was women only, because men gravitate more easily towards aggression, women more easily to non-violence. Where was I? But I was afraid at the same time because of my previous experiences of being bullied by girls. I thought, you know, are these women going to accept me? Um, do I speak - I'm, I'm not as politically politically aware. I'm not as articulate - I lacked confidence. It was the first time that I'd really been in close contact with a lot of more middle class, articulate, educated women. And I found that difficult. But the more I went to Greenham the more I became a part of it, the more empowered I became. And I guess I'd been a sort of closet feminist in my childhood, and this was the first time that I'd actually understood what feminism was really about. And how the personal is political, and joining up the dots between like things that happened to me in my childhood, and poverty, and working class roots, unemployment, whatever - it all seemed to somehow make more sense once I'd become involved with Greenham. [[Was Greenham mainly middle class? Or more intersectional?|Lyn Barlow But the more I’m meeting women, the more I'm finding out how very intersectional it was actually, how many lives crossed over.]] [[I was wondering about sort of the beginning of the of the camp, and what had actually originally, in the first place, initiated it in being - to be a woman only space? Did you hear anything about those decisions?| Lyn Barlow I was wondering about sort of the beginning of the of the camp, and what had actually originally, in the first place, initiated it in being - to be a woman only space? Were you involved in those decisions, or did you hear anything about those decisions?]]

It was very intersectional in some ways. But now when I look back on it, if it hadn't have been for Arlene, I probably wouldn't have gravitated towards Yellow Gate, because Yellow Gate was - did become predominantly middle class. [[Okay.|Lyn Barlow Okay.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow Okay.]]

A lot of the more working class women who were there when I very first went - like Sarah and Arlene - were literally coming to the end of their time at Greenham, they were burnt out. And they were going back to London. Which left quite a core group of older, middle class women. And kind of stragglers like me, and there were working class women, obviously. But if you looked at the makeup of the different gates, they tended to attract particular kinds of action, particular kinds of women. [[Can you remember any specifics about that?|Lyn Barlow Can you remember any specifics about that?]] [[The actions were different as well?|Lyn Barlow Were the actions is different as well then?]]

Well, I remember Blue Gate - I always associated as being younger women. More working class women. Um, Green Gate we always called the cosmic gate! I used to love going to actions at Green Gate but I couldn't have lived there because I just didn't get the spirituality - I later learned like it, but then it was alien to me. [[Were the actions is different as well then?|Lyn Barlow Were the actions is different as well then?]] [[How did the camp run day to day - like how did you deal with things like, I don't know, washing or periods? Or, like, was it - you don't have to tell me if it's too personal, but just like was there a sort of system?|Lyn Barlow how did you deal with the practicality, just that how did the camp run day to day - like how did things like, I don't know, washing or periods? Or like was it - you don't have to tell me if it's too personal, but just like was there a sort of system?]]

Yeah. Orange Gate had a really firm - a really core group of women who supported it, especially at weekends - like the Camden women. And local women from Newbury tended to gravitate towards Orange Gate. It was a lot less formal than some of the - than Yellow Gate. Um, Violet Gate was kind of a mishmash, it never really - because it was on the edge of the road, and there wasn't really a campsite as such, that was always one that kind of were quite fluid. Emerald Gate was a gate in the woods that was created because it had the best view of the silos. I loved Emerald Gate, that was a really good mix at Emerald Gate. Um, so yeah, maybe, maybe if my first time going there had been different and I'd gone to another gate, I might have ended up at another gate. But I think the intensity of Yellow Gate attracted me. [[Yellow Gate sounds like the 'city' of Greenham..|Lyn Barlow I've heard another woman describe it as being like the city - if there was, if there was a village or towns or whatever, this was the city of Greenham.]] [[In terms of day to day running of the camp, and the meetings where things were organised - how did.. women can't have all agreed with each other all the time?|Lyn Barlow in terms of like yeah day to day running of the camp and the meetings where things were organised - how did, women can't have all agreed with each other all the time?]]

But that's something that was really criticised. And I agree with that criticism. I was even guilty of it myself - Yellow Gate thought it was the main camp, because it was outside the main gate. [[Okay.|Lyn Barlow Okay2]] [[That's interesting, isn't it? Because, obviously, you, you all addressed the concepts of hierarchy as defined by patriarchy.|Lyn Barlow That's interesting, isn't it? Because, obviously, you, you all addressed the concepts of hierarchy as defined by patriarchy.]]

And the way that Yellow Gate women unconsciously often treated women from other gates enforced that. [[That's interesting, isn't it? Because, obviously, you, you all addressed the concepts of hierarchy as defined by patriarchy.|Lyn Barlow That's interesting, isn't it? Because, obviously, you, you all addressed the concepts of hierarchy as defined by patriarchy.]] [[Does that, was that part of.. When did - why did you leave in the end? What took you away?|Lyn Barlow Does that, was that part of - I suppose this could be linked to that sense of, or it could be a completely standalone question. When did - why did you leave in the end? What took you away?]]

Yeah. [[Consciously such a lot.|Lyn Barlow Consciously such a lot.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow Consciously such a lot.]]

Yeah, we have no leaders here. I wrote a poem about it - if you actually looked, if you scratched the surface, there were women who put themselves forward as leading figures. Like particular women who were always doing the press interviews - because they were good at it. And they knew how to present a case really articulately. But at the same time, that it left out a lot of women who weren't that comfortable with articulating ideas and that, and rather than spreading it around, it became a problem. [[Like, if you never get to try that thing, you don't get to be good at it, which is one of the reasons why women only space you know, men, men can't just step forward and do all the fun bits like the press interviews and all the bits. And then women can get good at it, and teach each other how to do it. But of course that would...|Lyn Barlow if you never get to try that thing, you don't get to be good at it, which is one of the reasons why women only space you know, men, men can't just step forward and do all the fun bits like the press interviews and all the bits. And then women can get good at it, and teach each other how to do it. But of course that would...]] [[Does that, was that part of.. When did - why did you leave in the end? What took you away?|Lyn Barlow Does that, was that part of - I suppose this could be linked to that sense of, or it could be a completely standalone question. When did - why did you leave in the end? What took you away?]]

That did happen. You know, women did become empowered. And they did find different ways of working as women only, and dealing with the press, dealing with like interactions with the public, interactions with the police, the squaddies, you know. Women did share that baseline, that base experience. But there was still women who kind of quite enjoyed being more prominent. [[Does that, was that part of.. When did - why did you leave in the end? What took you away?|Lyn Barlow Does that, was that part of - I suppose this could be linked to that sense of, or it could be a completely standalone question. When did - why did you leave in the end? What took you away?]]

Why did I leave Greenham? [[Um..|Lyn Barlow Um. (Agrees).]] [[Keep listening quietly|Lyn Barlow Um. (Agrees).]]

I think I was probably coming to the end of my time at Greenham anyway. [[How long had you been there?|Lyn Barlow How long had you been there?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I sort of started flitting between Sheffield and Greenham in ‘83. And moved fully just after my 21st birthday. So that's 1984. I went back to Sheffield to celebrate that, and then moved lock, stock and barrel. So in 1987, I was starting to become disillusioned in some ways. But I don't think I would have left then if it hadn't been for the split. [[There was a split?|Lyn Barlow Okay, and that all centered around Yellow Gate didn’t it?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, yeah - I don't think, I think I would have stayed longer. But the split just for me, um, destroyed everything that I believed in. And it turned woman against woman, specially at Yellow Gate. [[Can you tell me a bit more about - can you describe the split?|Lyn Barlow Can you tell me a bit more about - can you describe the split?]] [[But Greenham itself didn't stop?|Lyn Barlow But Greenham didn't stop at all?]]

Yeah, yeah. I'd never come across Wages for Housework campaign before. I'd never heard of them. I knew nothing about them. But I remember distinctly I think, probably ‘86, late ‘86 onwards, they started visiting Yellow Gate. They started doing supportive tasks like firewood, food. They never actually got involved in actions. But bit by bit, they became more and more present. And it felt almost - looking back on it - like they were grooming. And I actually believe looking back on it, a lot of the younger women who were involved with Wages for Housework, were like the foot soldiers, and I think they actually did believe the ideology that they were putting forward. But now I look back on it, and things I've learned since, I believe that Wages for Housework campaign existed solely to disrupt and destroy political campaigns and groups. Not only - not women-only ones - mainly women ones. Because after I left Greenham I did some research when I worked for Duncan. And the stuff we found out about them, the ways they'd gone in and disrupted groups. And the way that you never heard of them promoting, you know - having demonstrations, promoting the message that they were supposedly formed about. It all seemed to be about gaining entry and disrupting. And they were really good, in that they researched what they were trying to disrupt, and they found the Achilles heel. And I think this - the reason why they were successful at Greenham, was that they identified that our Achilles heel, specifically Yellow Gate's Achilles heel was race and class. So they came in, and they made accusations of racism. And that split the camp, because all of us felt slightly that Greenham had failed on some levels to relate to women of colour and, and what they've been through - it wasn't as immediate a concern to them, they were fighting their own battles. So we were sensitive to being accused of being racist. And what they did was there was, there was a conference in Russia. And quite a few women from Yellow Gate went on it, and some local women went on it, and some of the Camden women went on it. And there was a workshop that had been specifically put aside as a Greenham workshop. And Sarah Hipperson from Yellow Gate stood up to introduce the Greenham workshop, and handed it over to the Wages for Housework, to put forward their thing. So one of the local women - Lynette spoke up, and said ‘This is supposed to be a Greenham workshop.’ And from that moment onwards, they said that she had committed a racist attack, that her motives were racist. So when everybody came back from this conference in Russia, there was a line drawn, and women were basically told you either um, disenfranchise, reject Lynette - have no connections with her - whatever, or we were against you. It split the camp right down the middle. And the way - it was awful, you know, women who I'd lived with for like 3 years - mainly the more extreme, were suddenly, I don't know, um, enemies. You know, they'd verbally attack each other. They literally drove out anyone who didn't agree with, with the attack on Lynette. [[That's so sad. And your research showed the same thing in other places?|Lyn Barlow That's so sad. And your research showed the same thing in other places]] [[Who is Duncan, sorry?|Lyn Barlow Who is Duncan, sorry?]]

It just didn't make sense. They - not only did they call themselves Women for Housework, they had all different other names to try and encompass like, English Collective of Prostitutes, Winvisible - all these different groups were the same core people, but with different names. And when I worked for Duncan, you know, we talked to people from other campaigns that they've gone in and disrupted. [[Who is Duncan, sorry?|Lyn Barlow Who is Duncan, sorry?]] [[But Greenham didn't stop at all?|Lyn Barlow But Greenham didn't stop at all?]]

Um, when I left Greenham, I went to work as a researcher for Duncan Campbell at The New Statesman. And that resulted of stuff I'd been doing at Greenham, that I'd passed on to him. Um, and there was also anomalies - where they got the money from? Why they didn't seem to be drawing police attention or, you know, it just didn't, there was something that just didn't add up. And I remember, Duncan actually spoke to people when he went to the States who'd been involved with like, some of the women who founded Wages for Housework. And they hinted that there was more to it. But they weren't willing to go on record. So yeah, it was awful. And that really heralded the end of Yellow Gate as it had been - it became something different. [[But Greenham didn't stop at all?|Lyn Barlow But Greenham didn't stop at all?]] [[How was that - was the reintroduction of those very different lives after Greenham and very different life than what you might have expected before Greenham. Was that quite a bumpy re-entry?|Lyn Barlow How was that - was the reintroduction of those very different lives after Greenham and very different life than what you might have expected before Greenham. Was that quite a bumpy re-entry?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It didn’t stop. No, Blue Gate, and Orange Gate continued well on, you know, I mean, myself, and a lot of women moved to Orange Gate or Blue Gate, after leaving Yellow. But I began to start spending more time away from camp after that. But the worst thing for me was, I remember a meeting was called a Green Gate, to try and discuss and work out what was going on. And we - women came from all the different gates, and we all sat in a circle, and Wages for Housework were there, and that, and it was horrible. It was personal attacks, on particular women. And the particular woman who, who they went for the most was Rebecca, because they saw her as a star - because she had access to media. And they basically did a witch hunt against Rebecca - ‘Either, you come on side, our side? Or we'll, we'll, whatever.’ And what was so awful, was that it was so aggressive, and so intimidating. That we didn't, we didn't stand up and go to Rebecca's defense, because we were terrified. You know, and that's one big regret. I really wish I'd stood up and, and, and said there and then, you know, this is what you're doing. This is a witch hunt, because they were - the Wages for Housework and the women who became part - on side, they were constantly accusing other women of having a witch hunt. But it was about power. It was about power and influence. And they saw Rebecca that either she'd go onside, or they'd destroy her. And it was ugly. It was horrible. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I heard about them. Um, obviously, you know, the camp had started in ‘81, with the march from Wales. And it hadn't initially began as women only but it became women only. And I think a lot of the reasons for that was because women wanted to make links with other women. They wanted to practice non violence, they wanted to have autonomy, they wanted um, to be empowered. And women felt they couldn't do that in a mixed setting. Because I mean, lots of women who were involved with Greenham have been involved with over campaigns about over subjects that were mixed. And they’d so often been talked over, or not empowered. So I think that's where the organic reason to make it - to try and see if we could do it women only. I mean, there was a lot of opposition of it being women only by by men and women. Some women said ‘No, we don't want anything to do with it if it's going to be women only.’ And a lot of men, our husbands and partners, and friends couldn't, wouldn't accept, they saw it as as a direct threat to their masculinity, their patriarchal beliefs and values. You know, it really, it really questioned patriarchy, I think, in this country for probably the first time since the Suffragettes. [[It's amazing, really, that it never, it never changed, it never gave it gave way on that ground.|Lyn Barlow it's amazing, really, that it never, it never changed, it never gave it gave way on that ground.]] [[Were there any male allies at the camp?|Lyn Barlow Were there any male allies at the camp?]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/lyn_barlow.png" width="400" height="400" alt="Stylised photograph of Lyn Barlow, seated at a desk with a cutting mat. Photgraph by Christine Bradshaw, treatment by LHTrevail."> Lyn left care at 18 and took a student trip to Greenham. This first visit had a huge impact on Lyn who visited regularly and moved to Greenham permanently 3 years later. Lyn’s attitude to non-violence threaded through her engagement with MOD soldiers and squaddies and she describes talking with them about all sorts of subjects. Lyn went to various prisons many times, stating that there was no real stereotypical woman in prison, only stereotypical circumstances that conspired to put them there. She believes Greenham has valuable lessons in critical thinking that are just as relevant to young women today. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/jade_britton.png" width="400" height="400" alt="Stylised photograph of Jade Britton, seated, smiling. Photograph by Christine Bradshaw, treatment by LHTrevail."> Involved in several Women’s Groups, including Women for Life on Earth, Jade first visited Greenham in the early 1980s. She later decided to live at Violet Gate permanently for two years. She believes any woman who went to the camp either as a day visitor or permanent resident is a ‘Greenham Woman’. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/treated_logo.png" width="600" height="400" alt="Illustration of a line of seven Greenham Women, arms around eachother, by Jacky Fleming, treatment by LH Trevail."> Lorna was involved in her local CND group from the age of 14 and learnt about Greenham through the Quakers. She talks about how her political and moral views were shaped by her aunt and how she first hitched to Green Gate with two friends when she was 16. Lorna recalls staying at Turquoise Gate, prison sentences, underground nuclear testing and singing songs to keep up energy and morale. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/treated_logo.png" width="600" height="400" alt="Illustration of a line of seven Greenham Women, arms around eachother, by Jacky Fleming, treatment by LH Trevail."> Annei and Margaret both went to Greenham after getting involved in the local CND movement and met at camp. Annei was working at Harrods at the time and was a very unusual Peace Woman until she participated in an NVDA workshop which made her reflect on her job and the double life she was living. She resigned the next day. Both Annei and Margaret were profoundly influenced by the discussions at Greenham and left with a radical feminist perspective on the peace movement that changed the course of their lives. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/sally_hay.png" width="400" height="400" alt="Stylised photograph of Ailsa Johnson, smiling. Photograph by Christine Bradshaw, treatment by LHTrevail."> “I went to sleep last night pondering whether we made a difference. As I said yesterday, it’s my belief that language is critical in making attitudinal changes. The challenges to the standard discourse that the Greenham Women made were like little prods on the wheel of a giant ship. Gradually the ship turns and then it carries on turning and eventually a noticeable change of direction has taken place. We did that. I played a tiny part in that, something of which I am proud. So, thank you all for giving me the opportunity to remember.” [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

<img src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/maggie_parks.png" width="400" height="400" alt="Stylised photograph of Maggie Parks, smiling, with a Womans Centre Cornwall banner behind her. Photograph by Christine Bradshaw, treatment by LHTrevail."> In telling her story of living at the Greenham camp, Maggie Parks illustrates the power of the experience to inspire and uplift. Finding Greenham at the time of her beloved father’s death at just 58 years old, Maggie allowed the energy and love at the camp to swell into the void and become a vital part of something as powerful as her grief. Very much a personal life story, Maggie describes how the experience and energy has stayed with her in a lifelong career supporting and protecting women against violence. [[Back|Find out more about Greenham Women.]]

What would you like to ask Sally Hay? [[Can I ask you how you actually became involved in the whole movement?|Sally Hay can I ask you how you actually became involved in the whole movement?]] [[What was the effect of your Greenham activity on your relationships, both with your family and your friends?|Sally Hay What was the effect of all your activity on your relationship, both with your family and your friends?]]

What would you like to ask Maggie Parks? [[Did you live at Greenham?|Maggie Parks Did you live at Greenham?]] [[Can you tell me some things about your time at Greenham?|Maggie Parks Yes, yes, as long as it's flowing, I have prompts if you dry out.]]

The only time I actually had a problem with it being women only, was that some women were quite um, committed to separatism or whatever, kind of drew a line about women being able to bring their children - male children. They made kind of an age cut off. And I didn't like that. Because I knew women who’d brought their children, male children, whatever. And they'd been great, you know. They, the young boys were learning themselves more about, um, about women about, you know, it was a nurturing for them. And I had a problem because some women literally felt they couldn't come because they couldn't bring their children. [[How was the experience of being a child at Greenham do you think - what was the sort of way it worked?|Lyn Barlow how was the experience of being a child at Greenham do you think - what was the sort of way it worked?]] [[Do you see any kind of campaigning of political sides of Greenham nowadays in action?|Lyn Barlow Do you see any ways in which Greenham is - any kind of, any kind of campaigning or political sides of Greenham now in action, sort of thing?]]

Well, when I first went to Greenham, Sarah and Arlene had got born at Greenham - he was the only child ever born at Greenham. I liked Sarah and Arlene, immensely. I used to go into town to the cafe for egg and chips, whatever. So I was really sad when they left. And I often wonder how, how that time at Greenham, that, that backstory, how Jay feels about it now all those years later. And I remember that there was an undercover reporter at Yellow Gate for a certain amount of time, and we didn't know about it. And she went off and wrote a horrendous article, saying that Jay was basically mistreated, really. By - you know not, not cared for. And oh god, that ripped through Sarah and Arlene, it really did. But now I think... [[Who was that journalist working for, which paper?|Lyn Barlow Who was that journalist working for, which paper?]] [[How long was that journalist there for?|Lyn Barlow How long was that journalist there for?]]

I can't remember now, going back. [[Was it a tabloid?|Lyn Barlow Was it a tabloid?]] [[How horrid.|Lyn Barlow How horrid.]]

Oh god. Yeah, I mean constantly - level that we were all lesbian, or we’re all aggressive, confrontational. And yeah, we were all of those things, but much more besides, you know what I mean - that was what they wanted to see and portray. [[Did you have any other experiences of journalists, positive or negative?|Lyn Barlow Did you have any other experiences of journalists - did that, positive or negative?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, it was a tabloid. [[How horrid.|Lyn Barlow How horrid.]] [[Were they generally treated very badly, the Greenham Women, by the press?|Lyn Barlow Because they were treated very badly - the Greenham women by particularly the Sun weren't they?]]

Typical tabloid. [[Were they generally treated very badly, the Greenham Women, by the press?|Lyn Barlow Because they were treated very badly - the Greenham women by particularly the Sun weren't they?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Positively, um, Janie who worked for the Morning Star. She was brilliant. Um, she was the first get to, get go to. Because I, increasingly as part of the actions that I took play, part in, we removed documents and whatever - took photographs, whatever. And built up quite a relationship with Janie, because she would be probably the, the only journalist who would actually go on and print regardless of being told not to. I mean, remember, one document we got out, we took it around the press, and no one would touch it. It was like a hot potato. Whether there’d been a D-notice put on it, we don't know. But Janie Hulme would run it. And that's how I first got contact with Duncan, because Duncan would would run it. [[Who is Duncan, sorry?|Lyn Barlow Who is Duncan, sorry?]] [[Wow.|Lyn Barlow Wow3.]]

Um, but the rest of the papers, even left wing papers like the Guardian, you know, still, we still had that prickly relationship. [[Who is Duncan, sorry?|Lyn Barlow Who is Duncan, sorry?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Firstly, I don't think that NVDA, nonviolent direct action is easy. I think you actually have to really work at it. I don't think it's, I mean, we were saying about men being more aggressive. But even as women, your reaction to be roughly treated or whatever, you have to, you have to have a quite a high degree of control. And that's learned. [[Could you break it down for someone who's never come across the idea before.|Lyn Barlow So, so break it down for someone who's never come across the idea before.]] [[It must become habit forming, because you're analysing your behaviour, and the other people's behaviour.|Lyn Barlow It must become habit forming, because you're analysing your behaviour, and the other people's behaviour.]]

I guess for me it built on principles put forward by people like Martin Luther King, or Gandhi, and early Suffragettes. Whereas you wouldn't, you wouldn't use aggression or violence in your interaction with anyone. So if you're being dragged out the road by a policeman, you’d go limp. But you, but it wouldn't, you wouldn't - yeah, it's a hard one to describe. It's, it's a way of being where you don't violate. So you concentrate on your inner strength. And your beliefs, and they come foremost and non- violence is something that you believe in wholeheartedly. How can you fight the war machine with aggression? You can't - it's, that's the very thing that you're, you're fighting against. So non-violence makes a statement. But it’s also a way of life. And I think that's learnt, and it's not something that you just automatically - it's not a position. It's an actual organic way of living. [[It must become habit forming, because you're analysing your behaviour, and the other people's behaviour.|Lyn Barlow It must become habit forming, because you're analysing your behaviour, and the other people's behaviour.]] [[Would it be violating the belief system to cause criminal damage to property?|Lyn Barlow it would be not, in certain circumstances, it wouldn't be violating the belief system to cause criminal damage to property would it?]]

But I look back at my own actions, and some of them make me cringe. Because I actually feel that I was at a point in my life where I hadn’t worked through a lot of baggage. And when I went to Greenham, I wasn't as politically aware, I wasn't as articulate as a lot of women I was living with. So I felt, even though I was like in the midst of a crowd of women, I still felt very much alone. And for me, when I started to take part in NVDA, that became my vocabulary. That was my way of expressing myself. And because of that, I maybe threw myself into it too much. I was maybe at times reckless. Um, but it was my vocabulary for a long time. [[Would it be violating the belief system to cause criminal damage to property?|Lyn Barlow it would be not, in certain circumstances, it wouldn't be violating the belief system to cause criminal damage to property would it?]] [[Was it a good place to work through things? |Lyn Barlow And so you were saying about the stigma of mental health at camp?]]

Yeah, but even that would differ. [[Yeah?|Lyn Barlow Yeah2?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow Yeah2?]]

I mean, I believe that criminal damage was a means to an end. [[And what was the, what was the end?|Lyn Barlow And what was the, what was the end]] [[How about stealing documents and things?|Lyn Barlow It's also interpretive, isn't it? As all action is. And did you, and so you talked about going and stealing some documentation - how did you how did you do that? (Laughs).]]

It was, it was to challenge the military. To disrupt. But I didn't feel it was in a - I didn't feel criminal damage was aggressive in itself. It depended on what the - your motive. And yet some women did have problem with with criminal damage. It's funny because they had no problem with cutting a hole in the fence. But painting a slogan. But I think a lot of women worked through that. And, and did actually agree with criminal damage in the end. But you know, there were differences of opinion. I mean, there was huge debate at camp about um, the first time that they cut the fence and went inside the base. You know, was that something we should be doing? Shouldn't we be just blockading? Some women didn't agree with pulling the fence down, they saw that as aggressive. You know, there were differences in opinion about so much. [[What about stealing docments and things?|Lyn Barlow It's also interpretive, isn't it? As all action is. And did you, and so you talked about going and stealing some documentation - how did you how did you do that? (Laughs).]] [[Did you go to prison?|Lyn Barlow You did go to prison though, didn't you as well, because I've read some of your diaries from Holloway. And I think from another prison as well.]]

That, that came later. And actually the first time I removed a document was from Aldermaston because I’d - in ‘86, I became really interested in Aldermaston - its history, you know, CND and whatever. But the fact that it was still designing a new, new forms of nuclear deterrence. So I started doing actions at Aldermaston and eventually, and we formed the Aldermaston women's Campaign. We started regular camps outside Aldermaston. And we'd done an action in there once - stop me if I'm going on. [[No, no, not at all, this is fascinating. This is great.|Lyn Barlow No, no, not at all, this is fascinating. This is great.]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

But we'd done criminal damage. There were three of us, we'd done criminal damage. We are covered in paint. Got arrested, put in this one room. While we're in this one room, I heard this WPC saying ‘Oh, how do we deal with these protesters?’ And a male colleague said ‘Oh, you're to sign out standing orders. That explains it.’ Then we were moved into another room, and bare room with a table and drawer, whatever. Well, my two friends went to sleep. I was looking in the drawer and came across this standing orders, that she'd obviously signed out to read about how to deal with protesters. Well, we'd already been searched, so I thought I wonder, so I put it in my bag along with my coat and that, and eventually I was called out first to be charged. So I was taken through, charge was read out, whatever. And then they were gonna release me. I said ‘Can I get my bag?’, and get out the gate. Got up the road. There was a camp - a demonstration, mixed demonstration taking place. Managed to cadge a lift back to Greenham. But while I'd been in the other room being charged, one of the other women who was left in the room had put a policeman's hat in my bag. So I got back to Greenham with this bloody policeman's hat in my bag, as well as this document. Went inside the bender, started to show the women the document I'd nicked, police come charging out of Yellow Gate, jump on me, arrest me for theft of the policeman's hat. So while I was under arrest, they discovered that the document had gone. And thankfully, the women at camp had gone and photocopied it immediately. So it was too late. And they held me for hours and hours. And it was - they took it quite seriously. I mean, there wasn't that much sensitive information in that document. But it was embarrassing for them. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I, and this was something else that divided camps. I didn't feel comfortable - whereas I approved of criminal damage and whatever, I shied away from confrontation - direct confrontation with squaddies, MOD police, men who came to the camp who didn't agree. I didn't like - I believed that in order to win hearts and minds, you had to have dialogue. So bit by bit - because I did so much direct action, I couldn't help but form sort of rapport with particular officers who I came into contact with time and time again. And a lot of women had a problem with that. They believed that that was a line that you shouldn't cross. [[Us and them sort of thing?|Lyn Barlow Us and them sort of thing?]] [[Did that rapport make it harder for the men to be cruel to the women?|That you try to break down a sense of us and them, so that they couldn't apply that to you as well. So it was harder for them to be cruel to the women as well.]]

Yes. The us and them. And I didn't agree with that. I believed that if you wanted to affect change, there had to be dialogue. You had to put your case across, and explain why you felt that way. You had to listen to the way they felt, and try and you know, politicise. And, and I'm glad I was like that. And there were other women like that as well, who didn't just see people who we came across who didn't agree with us as the enemy as such, but as people. [[Did breaking down the 'us and them' make it harder for the men to be cruel to the women?|That you try to break down a sense of us and them, so that they couldn't apply that to you as well. So it was harder for them to be cruel to the women as well.]] [[How did you find the relationship with the locals?|Lyn Barlow How did you find the locals? How was the relationship with the locals?]]

Actually it bore through for me personally, because when the convoys started going out on Salisbury Plain, and we became active on Salisbury Plain. We were becoming a big thorn in the military's side. And I did an action with some women, and we were really physically manhandled into the backs of vans. And when we were processed, I was left to last. I thought oh, you know - I was taken in and I was charged with assault on a WPC - which never took place, it just did not happen. And I was incredibly upset about it. We got back to Greenham, and I was on other actions inside Greenham. And I got chatting to some of the MOD policemen about this charge. [[While you were there illegally?|Lyn Barlow While you were there illegally?]] [[Brilliant! |Lyn Barlow Brilliant! (Laughs).]]

While I was there illegally. Yeah. [[Brilliant! (Laugh).|Lyn Barlow Brilliant! (Laughs).]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow Brilliant! (Laughs).]]

In Greenham. And they were sympathetic. And they were shocked that I'd been charged with assault. And two of them - a sergeant and a constable contacted me and said ‘We're willing to come to court. We're willing to stand up and say of our interactions with you, that we've never experienced violence.’ And, and they actually did - they turned up at the court case in uniform. [[Wow.|Lyn Barlow Wow]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow Wow]]

Stood up and did character references for me, basically . And that court room was full of Wiltshire MOD police officers in uniform. And there were two Greenham MOD police officers in uniform. And the case got thrown out, I was exonerated. I didn't only have those two as witnesses, I had women who were on that action who hadn't witnessed an assault. And also the way that the charge itself, the way they said it happened, couldn't have literally happened physically. Um, and then later, in 1986, I was involved in a really serious car accident. It was at a time when I was on bail, stating that I couldn't live at Greenham, so I was living at a women's place in Henley on Thames. But when the convoys were coming out, we travelled back to the camp. And we were driving back late at night, because the convoy was due out. And we were driving on country roads outside Reading, went round a blind bend, and a farmer had left a hay truck with no lights or reflectors. And we couldn't avoid it. So my side, the front caved in on me, and I broke both my legs. And I was trapped for like 2 odd hours with fire brigades to come and get me out, whatever. And a message was relayed to the police at Greenham. Now the convoy was coming out that night. So things are quite tense when the convoy's due out, but they sent someone down to the camp, to tell the camp about the accident. And that I'd been taken to Reading, and, and while I was in hospital - because I was in hospital for quite some time, I got get well cards from the Ministry of Defense, police Greenham common off individual officers and their families, you know. So for me that, that reinforced how I felt. And I remember another woman I knew at Greenham, who also worked in that way. She actually got invited by one - a police officer to go and spend Christmas Day with him and his family. She didn't. But you know, the invite was there. And when I came out of hospital and visited camp, you know that they - their attitude, you know, they - yeah, we weren't friends. But... [[It's almost like you were colleagues, weirdly.|Lyn Barlow It's almost like you were colleagues, weirdly.]] [[The way in which you dealt with them brought out the best side of them that was possible by sounds of it.|Lyn Barlow And that brought out the best, the best side of them that was possible by sounds of it.]]

We had a working relationship. [[The way in which you dealt with them brought out the best side of them that was possible by sounds of it.|Lyn Barlow And that brought out the best, the best side of them that was possible by sounds of it.]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. I mean, you wouldn't just be talking about nuclear weapons and your feelings about war you, you'd end up talking about all sorts of different things. Just interaction. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I, my first time I went to prison, I was absolutely terrified. [[I would be.|Lyn Barlow I would be.]] [[Me too.|Lyn Barlow I would be.]] [[Of what?||Lyn Barlow I would be.]]

I think because I had all those stereotypes in my head about what the other women were going to be like, what the officers were going to be like, was I going to be bullied like I'd been bullied by girls when I was in care? And as soon as I got to prison, all that was just obliterated - all those stereotypes. Yeah, there were aggressive women. But there was no stereotype of what a woman prisoner was like. And I found I could relate to these women, because they'd had similar backgrounds to me, that a lot had gone through extreme poverty, or domestic violence, or abuse as children. They'd, they'd been forced into committing offences because of the conditions that they were living in. And not only that, women in prison, women who went before the courts were punished on two levels, they were punished for the offence that there was - they'd committed, but they was also punished because they were seen by the male patriarchal system as having betrayed their sex - as having betrayed femininity. So you'd find that women got sent to prison for offences, quite minor offences, that men wouldn't receive a custodial sentence for - like shoplifting, prostitution, non-payment of fines. But when I first went to prison, I had all those stereotypes in my head. Um, and as I went to prison more and more often, that's when I think the seeds of disillusionment with Greenham started, because of the stark contrast between Greenham women in prison, and other women prisoners. [[Okay.|Lyn Barlow Okay]] [[Contrast..?[[Okay.|Lyn Barlow Okay]]

And how I felt - not all Greenham women by any means - but a lot of Greenham women who went to prison, saw themselves as political prisoners. And didn't acknowledge that the vast majority of women in prison were political prisoners. And there was a demarcation between Greenham women, and the other women prisoners. A lot of that was broken down, the more often women went to prison. But it was still there. And I remember that the last ever sentence that I served, that was 4 months - I'd actually left Greenham it was well over a year since I'd left, when I was gone back into education. And the court case came up, and we got 4 months. But that last sentence, I got moved out to a semi-open prison, while my co-defendant stayed at Holloway. And I found myself scrubbing floors beside this, this, this black woman prisoner, who I knew from the care system in Sheffield. You know, I'd met her in a Remand Assessment Centre when I was 12 years old. And here I was in prison alongside her - it, it and I stopped, and I made - I formed bonds with other women at that prison, who made me question erm specifically, class, I suppose, in a lot of ways. But I started to I mean, from early on that first time I ever went to prison, the first time I ever went to prison, I got sent to prison with an older woman - we hadn't taken part in the same action, but we'd both been sentenced. I'd got 7 days, she got 14 days, we shared a cell. Oh, god, she snored! And she wouldn't come out of the cell to mingle with other women, even in association, even on exercise. And I saw that so often. I saw, when other Greenham woman were in prison, if we went out and exercised there'd be a, we'd stick, you know they'd stick together, they wouldn't be interacting. [[Was that fear, do you think?|Lyn Barlow Was that fear, do you think?]] [[Was that snobbery, more than fear?|Lyn Barlow Or slight snobbery?]]

No. I'm not sure it was. [[Snobbery?|Lyn Barlow Or slight snobbery?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow Or slight snobbery?]]

Yeah. I'm not sure it was fear. Because, yes, there was bullying in prison. But there was often not that much bullying in prison. And lots of women learnt so much from other women prisoners about their lives, and what they've had to - they've gone through, whatever. And you didn't think to yourself in another life, and, you know, I could be - and I particularly felt that because of the amount of kids who’d been through the care system, like me, who ended up either in prison, or in the military, you know, total institutions. [[Yeah.|Lyn Barlow Yeah.]] [[Did any of the women that you met in prison ever come to camp?|Lyn Barlow Did any of the women that you met in prison ever come to camp?]]

Um. So, it, the more and more I went to prison, the more and more I related to the other women easier than I related to the women at camp. [[Did any of the women that you met in prison ever come to camp?|Lyn Barlow Did any of the women that you met in prison ever come to camp?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, I remember meeting a young woman when I got sent to Bullwood Hall. And she turned out to live near Newbury. And when she got out, she came up and visited camp. And that very last sentence of 4 months when I got out, I stayed in touch with one of the women I'd become really close friends with. And she, she invited me to her family home, and I met her family, her kids, and we stayed in touch for quite a while. And also early on in my time when I started going to prison - I was held on remand for quite some time, because I kept breaching the conditions of my bail. And because I had lots of court appearances, and I'd gotten to know a lot of the women, I was on remand with, I used to smuggle out their stories. And that's how I made contact with an organisation called Women in Prison, and started working with them to get publicity about women, individual women's stories, and about things that were happening within prisons. Towards the end of my time at Greenham, and when I left Greenham I became drawn towards penal reform and campaigns about specifically women's imprisonment. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Lots of women when they left Greenham kind of went in all different directions. But nearly all of them became involved in, in specific political, whether it was grassroots, um women's refuges, domestic abuse, whether it was involvement with, with campaigning about Latin America. I mean, after I left Greenham I shared a flat in London with two other Greenham women - one Naomi, spent more and more time in Nicaragua, and she became really involved in that. The woman spearheaded the Peace Tax campaign. So Greenham women took what they learned at Greenham, and built on it, and took it into a huge spectrum. I mean, I remember something that was quite important while, while I was at Greenham, were the links we made with like, the miners’ wives, and how they politicised us in ways, and we politicised them in ways. [[How did you cross paths with them?|Lyn Barlow How did, how did you cross paths with them? Did they come to actions, or did you go and support strikes?]] [[Do you think it's important for Greenham to be remembered by subsequent generations?|Lyn Barlow why do you think it's important for Greenham to be remembered by subsequent generations?]]

I think we, we did make a conscious effort to go to, to pickets, and, and to make links. And these were women who'd been at the sharp end of patriarchy in a lot of ways, very male dominated communities, where they'd been suppressed. And they were finding their own voice through campaigning against pit closures, and about what it was putting them through, um, on a social and economic level. And I think, especially from Yorkshire, I went back to Yorkshire quite a lot during that time, and went to pickets, because the kids home I'd lived in was quite near to, like pit towns. And while I was there, I saw the masses of police vans going to Orgreave and whatever. So I felt quite strongly about that. But I remember going to these pickets and trying to talk to a lot of the men. And they were horrified by us, though initially they were horrified, horrified by lesbianism, about - by women only, you know, that - it - they saw that as a challenge as a threat, you know, to their.... [[To the core of how they lived?|Lyn Barlow To the core of how they lived?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow To the core of how they lived?]]

Yeah, that we were, what's the word? That we were making inroads into their society, and corrupting - you know, but then there were a lot of men involved with, with pit strikes who, who did - were favourable. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, we got a lot, I mean, it was problematic at times, because some women said ‘We don't want men come into camp at all, you know, it's a no go area.’ So there was friction. I mean, I was guilty of it, too. At one point, when Cruise Watch started, which was a mixed group that had been started by women who'd had quite a lot to do with Greenham, there was a degree of animosity between some Greenham women, myself included at first, and mixed actions in that they shouldn't be getting too close to Greenham - you know, if they stuck to Salisbury Plain if they did, you know, followed the convoys, or whatever, that was fine. But they had to keep their distance... [[From the camp?|Lyn Barlow From the camp?]] [[Was Cruise Watch a different thing to Greenham?|Lyn Barlow And what made it different? I don't - I've, this is my ignorance, now, I've only ever heard it in a sentence as if it was part of Greenham, but clearly it's different thing?]] [[What was Cruise Watch?|Lyn Barlow And what did it do specifically - what was its job there?]]

But as time....oh, but as time went on, we started working with them... [[On Cruise Watch?|Lyn Barlow And what did it do specifically - what was its job there?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow And what did it do specifically - what was its job there?]]

It was, it grew out of Greenham. [[What was Cruise Watch?|Lyn Barlow And what did it do specifically - what was its job there?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow And what did it do specifically - what was its job there?]]

Cruise Watch was set up specifically to follow, track and disrupt cruise convoys, when they were taken down to Salisbury Plain. Because the Americans propagated that they would, that these convoys would melt into the countryside, in the, in the, in the case of a war, they would be deployed. They'd hide in a copse of trees, and nobody would know that they were there. So if there was a nuclear, nuclear strike on, on England, on Greenham, they'd be able to fire back because no-one would know. So Cruise Watch - and they were incredibly skilled, in the end, they tracked those convoys, they disrupted them on Salisbury Plain, they let everybody know exactly where the convoys were. They'd walk through like the military - they'd trespass, they'd make their way towards the copse of trees where they were hiding. You know, they'd be arrested by soldiers, they caused havoc. They were such a thorn in the military, especially the American’s side. I mean, I remember breaking into Greenham once, getting into a hangar and sitting in the cab of a one of the vehicles - didn't have missiles or anything on it, but I remember there was, there was something hanging in it, and some quotation saying ‘Kill a Cruise Watcher today and score so many points,’ something, something along that lines. They hated Cruise Watch, I mean, they hated Greenham women, but they hated Cruise Watch as well equally - the Americans. [[Were the Americans very different to the MOD?|Lyn Barlow Were the Americans very different to the MOD?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah, you found the Americans much more aggressive. Um, it was much harder to, not to react to that aggression because it was extreme. I remember being really badly, rough handled by American soldiers. Whereas the British soldiers they might not be sympathetic, but they had been told how they should behave. And most most times they, they they, they, you know, followed that. There were instances with British squaddies. I mean, it would be stupid not to know that there were, but - and I remember one instance while I lived at Greenham, two women from Yellow Gate set up a temporary camp between Yellow and Green gate beside the fence. And they were there alone one night, and the lights along the fence went out, and they were attacked by men in balaclavas with, with clubs, and they were badly beaten - they both got taken to hospital. And it was a British squaddie who witnessed part of it who actually called the ambulance and police, whatever. The men who attacked them never spoke. Until this day, we think they were American soldiers, basically. [[How awful.|Lyn Barlow How awful.]] [[Can you tell me more about the difference?|Lyn Barlow diff between british and american soldiers]]

There really was a difference between the British squaddies and the American. [[Can you tell me more about that?|Lyn Barlow diff between british and american soldiers]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was that cocky attitude that - I mean, I remember a woman American um, soldier - we staged, two of us had staged a demonstration up a water tower. I remember this American woman soldier stood at the bottom saying ‘Jump you cows, jump!’ (Laughs). And you know, you wouldn't have got that off a woman squaddie, British squaddie or woman WPC MOD officer. [[I wonder if there's something as well about just not being on the home turf, not being accountable?|Lyn Barlow I wonder if there's something as well about just not being on the home turf, not being accountable?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. I mean, I remember one night, we got found by an American soldier outside the control bunker. And we were sat in the front of a Humvee vehicle, and they were very protective of their vehicles, you know, toys for the boys. He went crazy. And he dragged me out really roughly. And I really kicked off when I was arrested, I wanted to know his name, his, his number - I wanted to push for a complaint against him. You couldn't, you couldn't touch those American soldiers. They, they, they could get away, you know, with, with badly treating you because they weren't held accountable. The Americans... No, no, that they weren't accountable. But I remember when Hessletine visited Greenham. And when the missiles were actually inside Greenham in the silos. There were fences and fences around the silos, you know, three lots of fences. And the American soldiers on - in the inner sanctum were told that if women ever broke through that inner sanctum, there will - I think it was called an orange card policy or something - they could if, if pushed actually shoot. If, if women actually got through that inner, the most inner thing. Whereas it never happened, but if you did get close to the silos on an action, you'd see Americans pointing their guns at you. But you'd see British I mean, in the early days, you'd see British squaddies pointing guns, you know. I mean, when I first went to Greenham there were squaddies who used to patrol that whole of the outer fence. I mean, it was nine miles round. But they gave it gave up after so many years, because it wasn't feasible, they could afford to keep.. So they - in some ways gave up. [[Is that what happened with the bailiffs as well?Lyn Barlow Is that what happened with the bailiffs as well?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh the bailiffs were, do you know, I think I had more contempt from the bailiffs than I did almost anyone else I came across. They were awful. They took pleasure. You know, in the - I mean, that's why the Quakers develop these getaway tents because the bailiffs would come and anything that you didn't have - anything left on the floor for a minute, they would take and put in that muncher. And I remember one day, Rebecca had hold of a piece of wood, and we had little wood at that particular time, and she wouldn't let go of it. And a bailiff had hold of the other end. And they went put it in the muncher and Rebecca, you know, steadfast, you know ‘I'm not letting go of it’. And they turned it on and it caught the top of her hand, and she fought tooth and nail to get them accountable for that. [[Were they?|Lyn Barlow Were they?]] [[How could they possibly not be?|Lyn Barlow Were they?]]

Do you know, I never to this day, I don't know what the eventual outcome was. Because I'm pretty sure she ended up actually taking civil action against the bailiffs for that. But they were awful - they were, you couldn't form any kind of dialogue with the bailiffs. Because their sole intent was to disrupt and demoralise. But it didn't work. You know, we, we found ways, you know, to challenge them. We'd be alerted by people saying ‘Oh the bailiffs are on their way’, so we'd have a good 10 minutes to get all our stuff together, and we’d cross over the road, they'd go, we'd move back - whatever. And sometimes they'd come back an hour later. [[Who would alert you? Other camps or residents?|Lyn Barlow Who would alert you? Other camps or residents?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Other camps, and local supporters. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was a difficult one, because - especially in the early days, or throughout my time at Greenham, Newbury - we were barred from shops, pubs, cafes, god knows what. I mean, I remember one Christmas trying to get a bottle of wine, and couldn't find anywhere I could get a bottle of wine. There'd be notices in pub windows say ‘No Greenham women or gypsies’. We were barred from the Little Chef. So there was a national campaign against the Little Chef, and they gave in in the end. But there were particular places in Newbury, where we were welcome. Like, there was a cafe called The Empire, which still going today, is still run by the very same people. Still that same character about it. The Quakers were incredibly supportive. They actually built that into the back room of the Quaker meeting house, so that we had a shower and a washing machine and a dryer. So women could go there and, you know, clean themselves up and whatever. But lots of people, lots of local people who were opposed to the camp, were opposed to it for many different reasons that they felt threatened by the women. They didn't like the fact that we smelled of smoke, you know, that they felt we were uncouth, you know, it was quite a right wing area. [[Was it a military family area?|Lyn Barlow It was a very military family area wasn't it?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. They were quite proud of having the Americans there, you know. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

There was routines. You know, I remember digging shit pits, that was one of the first things I probably remember - um digging shit pits, collecting wood. Doing the food shop, going to money meetings, because we had money meetings every week where representatives of all the different camps met to to allocate money. Like if there were women from abroad, living at camp and they obviously had no income, they couldn’t access benefits, then they’d get camp dole, you know. [[That's a brilliant idea, I didn't know there was camp dole.|Lyn Barlow That's a brilliant idea, I didn't know there was camp dole.]] [[And did you um...|Lyn Barlow And did you um...]]

Yeah, you'd be - depending on how much money we had in the kitty, it'd be allocated for actions that were put forward that needed bolt cutters or paint, or, you know, it was very democratic, even though there were those layers of difference. It was a democracy in its purest. [[And in its resources by the sound of it?|Lyn Barlow And in its resources by the sound of it?]] [[And did you um...|Lyn Barlow And did you um...]]

And one thing I do remember that I really, really appreciated when I was at Greenham was they set up a network of local groups that in the winter would, would come round with a van and provide meals. And they were a lifesaver, you know they'd be vegetarian friendly meals, because quite a few women were vegan as well. So there’d be a vegan option, and the effort they put into providing the, that, you know. [[Would that have been local residents?|Lyn Barlow Would that have been local residents?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Collecting water, you know, we fought for the right to be recognised as a valid address, which we actually were - we got mail delivered. Um we paid, I think, for a while we paid water rates so that we could use standpipes on the water. You know, it - there was that a routine. [[And did you um...|Lyn Barlow And did you um...]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was local peace groups, mainly - Quakers or or anti-nuclear groups. Often mixed you know, there'd be guys driving the van and whatever. And, and the Quakers in particular with their emphasis on peace - they were incredibly supportive. You know, there, they were the local Quakers regularly held what's the word? Not worship but... [[Services..?|Lyn Barlow Services..?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow Services..?]]

Yeah. Particularly at Blue Gate they used to. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

There was, there was a stigma of mental, mental health really, really was. And all - whilst there was this solidarity, that we were all the same, in that we were women, in that we had shared political beliefs and moral values, and whatever - we didn't, we didn't spend a huge amount of times talking about our lives before Greenham. And I don't think, I can't remember ever, sitting down and talking, whilst I was at camp about being in care. [['m really surprised to hear that - I sort of assumed that you would share your previous experiences, and that would be politicising part, politicising yourselves and the shared experience.|Lyn Barlow I'm really surprised to hear that - I sort of assumed that you would share your previous experiences, and that would be politicising part, politicising yourselves and the shared experience.]] [[Do you think that was to do with helping you all live together?|Lyn Barlow Do you think that was to do with helping you all live together?]]

Yeah, we were all on about this personal is political. But it was almost like (sighs) - it, it was different - it was, we did share things we shared characteristics and personalities, likes, dislikes. But we didn't - there were still barriers. [[Do you think that was to do with helping you all live together?|Lyn Barlow Do you think that was to do with helping you all live together?]] [[Do you think that was partly generational, this, this stigma?|lyn Barlow Do you think that was partly generational, this, this stigma?]]

Probably. [[Like if you went too close or too deep, it would be very hard to share such an intensive living condition?|Lyn Barlow Like if you went too close or too deep, it would be very hard to share such an intensive living condition?]] [[Do you think that was partly generational, this, this stigma?|lyn Barlow Do you think that was partly generational, this, this stigma?]]

Yeah, I think a lot of it was. Because I remember feeling it more from the older women than I did the younger women. And I think as well, that might have been something that was quite particular to Yellow Gate. I don't think maybe that was as evident at other camps. Because after the split, and I started spending more time at Orange Gate and building relationships with women who lived at Orange, getting and who supported Orange Gate, who I was in touch with after I left Greenham - some supported me through thick and thin after Greenham, when I did have a total breakdown, at Cambridge, some of them carried on supporting me. Whereas there were no women from Yellow Gate - well there was one that supported me. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Um (agrees). I mean, we supported each other through prisons, you know, writing letters to women in prison. We supported each other in many, many ways. But when it came to like, depression, or even though I do remember kindness shown towards one woman in particular, who lived at Yellow Gate a long time. Who was really quirky - I mean, she was nicknamed Metal Micky, because she, she basically lived in the van that we all kept our stuff in. She didn't really spend much time around the campfire, she was very um, oh I can’t think of the term - she was such a character. And people did think fondly of her whilst at Greenham, and after Greenham. But, but there were women who just - you could tell just couldn't, couldn't deal with mental health. [[Do you think that was partly generational, this, this stigma?|lyn Barlow Do you think that was partly generational, this, this stigma?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was incredibly bumpy re-entry. I mean, I went to work for Duncan as a researcher, and I developed skills while I was at Greenham that made me particularly good at researching. And, and I was interested in areas that he was interested in - militarisation, secret services and all that sort of stuff. But at the Statesman, it was predominantly very middle class journalists who’d got degrees, and, and I felt there like I had at beginning of Greenham - I felt out of my depth. I felt I lacked confidence to articulate and whatever, and it was that that actually pushed me to the point where I went back into education, because I wanted to pursue it. And then Cambridge - I, it's crazy because I, I didn't respect institutions such as Cambridge, but at the same time that was like the Citadel power. And if you wanted to change things, where better than, than to embed yourself somewhere like that? And I was proud that I was the only person for my family to reach university. [[And such a university as well. If there is, even if we don't approve of it, there is - it goes with a huge cache.|Lyn Barlow And such a university as well. If there is, even if we don't approve of it, there is - it goes with a huge cache.]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I mean, I guess some women maybe saw me as selling out by doing that. I think I even questioned my own motives, you know, because I resented some women who left Greenham who managed to make a career out of being at Greenham. But at the same time, it opened doors for me, I would never have ended up at the New Statesman, I would have never ended up Cambridge without that background. Because what attracted the college that accepted me was that background, was that diversity, um, was what I'd learned at Greenham - that I could bring, like, to the course to the college. So yeah, it - but I think, the culture shock of coming from Greenham and then ending up at Cambridge, tipped me over, I had a breakdown at the end of my first year. And I think, I think it, it might have happened if I hadn't gone to Cambridge because things were building up. But I think it precipitated it. [[What brought you out of that, then? Is there anything about the legacy of Greenham in your life that you think has been positive or that...|Lyrn Barlow What brought you out of that, then? Is there any Is there anything about the legacy of Greenham in your life that you think has been positive or that...]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Hell of a lot, yeah, I mean, I don't regret for 1 minute, having gone to Greenham. It's one of the proudest achievements of my life. I feel honoured that I was able to do it, and I feel honoured about the vast majority of women I met there. Although I've been really critical, and - but I think that we owe it to ourselves and to Greenham to be critical, to say what the downfalls were, to say that racism and issues like that were our Achilles heel - that, that we didn't address issues like that. I think for me, Greenham was my university. It, I think I went there very much as a child. And I think that the way I threw myself into actions, sometimes being reckless, I was still that child. But I think, the effect of Greenham and what happened after Greenham was actually my coming of age - it, it informed the rest of my life and how I wanted to live. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think on a whole number of levels I think it's so important that young women today have got examples of ways in which women have become empowered. You don't hear that much these days about consciousness raising about personal is political. Yes, there's a feminist movement. But is it like third wave feminism, you know, it - I just think that bedrock has, has got such a valuable, you know, I think it's such an important part of her-story. And, like, we've been celebrating 100 years of Suffrage, you know, it's in that same category, you know. [[I totally agree. And the actions that you, that you organised at Greenham, some of them were as big as the, as anything that the Suffragettes, and that’s been done since, and it radicalised a generation in the same way that the Suffragettes did.|Lyn Barlow I totally agree. And the actions that you, that you organised at Greenham, some of them were as big as the, as anything that the Suffragettes, and that’s been done since, and it radicalised a generation in the same way that the Suffragettes did.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow I totally agree. And the actions that you, that you organised at Greenham, some of them were as big as the, as anything that the Suffragettes, and that’s been done since, and it radicalised a generation in the same way that the Suffragettes did.]]

And I think now more than ever - I haven't been politically involved as an activist for a long time. I've done campaign work around issues like mental health, women's imprisonment, whatever, I'm still connected with people on that sense. But if you look at the world, now - you look at Brexit, you look at Trump, you look at the rise of nationalism, popularism. You look at the way that people like refugees and asylum seekers are demonised, this culture of hatred. And I think is it about time that we once more became activists? I couldn't, I couldn't take part in NVDA anymore, I couldn't put myself in a position where I would get sent to prison. I couldn't no longer do that. Um, but I think the time is coming when we've got to regroup as women, young women, older women, mixed groups, everything. It's coming to the point where we've got to listen to our conscience and, and try and do something to affect change. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh, no. I mean, I remember when I first went to Yellow Gate, at one point, there were three fires. There was one fire that had like the anarchist women from London - Sarah, Arlene, and whatever. There was one fire that had the predominantly older middle class women. And then yet another fire that was like the stragglers. (Laughs). So there were demarcations, and conflict - there was conflicts of opinion, and ways of doing things and that ever. But we sort of agreed to disagree. Um, and everything we tried as, as, as really hard to have, like a democracy so that everyone could have input. If there was a major demonstration or an action that was being planned women from all the gates would meet to hammer out how it should go, you know. There was resentment towards Yellow Gate, that, that was evident throughout because of this - we are the main camp, we are the main gate. But it was wonderful to be able to attend things like money meetings and whatever, and see that democracy in action. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

She lived there for a week, I think. [[A whole week? Gosh, so how often did that sort of happen, like infiltration of either journalists or the state?|Lyn Barlow A whole week? Gosh, so how often did that sort of happen, like infiltration of either journalists or the state?]] [[Were they generally treated very badly, the Greenham Women, by the press?|Lyn Barlow Because they were treated very badly - the Greenham women by particularly the Sun weren't they?]]

We don't know, we honestly don't know. Um, it has come to light, and is increasingly coming to light because is it 20 year rules about information, data, whatever. It is coming to light, that there were infiltrators living at Greenham taking part at Greenham. And I think we'll probably end up finding out who some of them were. [[Did you get a sense, was there ever one where you did know, or you got a sense?|Lyn Barlow Did you get a sense, was there ever one where you did know, or you got a sense?]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

There were suspicions sometimes. And yeah, you can look back and you can remember, maybe particular women who always seemed to be like on the periphery of things - at meetings where we were discussing actions, or in the right place at the right time, who didn't physically get involved. And, and you think back and wonder. But it's a hard one because you don't want to feel that mistrust. [[And the vast majority of women there would have been women like yourself, or women that were all hugely benefitting from being around women like yourself. So I guess that the, the good and the radicalisation and the consciousness raising totally...|Lyn Barlow And the vast majority of women there would have been women like yourself, or women that were all hugely benefitting from being around women like yourself. So I guess that the, the good and the radicalisation and the consciousness raising totally...]] [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Outstrips it. [[Yeah.|Lyn Barlow Yeah3]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Lyn Barlow Yeah3]]

Oh, definitely. [[Thank Lyn Barlow, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

In, er, from about 1980, I was living in Pangbourne in Berkshire, having just finished university, and I was living with a partnerand we became aware of things happening somewhere near Newbury, which was very far away. And on one particular Sunday, I recall my partner and I went down to Greenham common. And I don't remember the date, but there was an awful lot of people there. And it was before it became a women's camp. So it was men and women. And I remember we were at what became known as Main Gate at one point, and there was a sort of rush for... the police were very violent in the way in which they pushed people back. And I was horrified. And we were both quite shocked by it. But my partner became - I felt, quite excited by the aggression. And so later that... we stayed on talking to people, and everybody was doing as people do following a large emotional event - going through their individual perspectives of what they saw, what they heard, and how dreadful it was. And I became aware there was a meeting going on at which women older than me, more vocal, and a great deal more competent than me were saying ‘This is the problem of having men at the camp’, and quietly thinking to myself, wow, that's a - that sounded, I know it sounds silly, but this chimed with what I was feeling about what I'd seen and heard - that it was the men. Both male police officers, but also the male protesters - it was men. Um, I thereafter started going to Greenham - I was working at the time and I wasn't a barrister then, I was working at Radio 210 doing voiceovers. And, and I started going down to Greenham on my own at weekends, and we subsequently moved to London. And when we got to London, I wasn't working because our little girl had just been born. So she was born in November 1984. So we've now had a fixed point date, actually. I had stopped working and it was - I went on and did other things and retrained after that, but there were a group of women in Alexandra Palace holding up placards, and having a peace camp on the slope as it went down by the grove. I don't... you know, Alexandra Palace, but it was by the grove in Alexandra Palace - there were a group of women, and so I went to see them. And I joined their little camp, and I can remember being - I became friends with those women, particularly Sue Roffie, as she became she was Sue Marshall then, she and her partner got married, and both change their name to Roffie which I thought was terribly impressive. It was neither of their surnames and so I was quite impressed by that. And Maggie Weatherby was was also very influential and Pat Arrowsmith was a member of that group, and she was already someone whose literature I'd read. Because Pat was a journalist and an author, who wrote on - and had would be one of the original CND campaigners from an era when I would have been too young to have been engaged with it, I think it's reasonable to say. And Pat’s a really, you know, impressive person and takes absolutely no nonsense. And so they had a Greenham women's support group, so I joined it. And it was marvellous, because these were intelligent, educated, feminist, sensible women. And that's, that and they, were all, and I didn't have a car or anything, or really hardly any money at that stage to be fair, but they organised car - various of them did work and did have jobs and cars. And, and we also organised coaches and things. And so I started getting to Greenham regularly with them, and became part of the weekend Greenham support network, and we went and took it in turns to do weekends, to allow the women who were there all the time, a little bit of respite, so that’s really - sorry it’s a really long answer! [[No! Perfect (laughs), love it. Okay, so you were going to Greenham in this support group. What did you do there? What's the living conditions?|Sally Hay No! Perfect (laughs), love it. Okay, so you were going to Greenham in this support group. What did you do there? What's the living conditions?]] [[Can you tell me more about Alexandra Palace?|Sally Hay Alexander Palace Knitting]]

Well, the purposes of our visits were to take supplies, and we took - probably my own bodyweight in lentils, I should have thought! (Laughs). And warm, dry clothes and wellingtons, and things like that - tinned food, in-fact, that’s what I remember taking - that seems very odd now, but I don't know why. But also, we did the night watch. Because if they were doing night watch 5 nights a week, to have 2 nights off, and actually get a night's sleep, or at least the opportunity of a night's sleep, whether or not they actually got it or not was a different thing - was said to be of help. And so, we - I mean to do a night watch basically you sit around the fire and wait. [[For what?|Sally Hay For what?]] [[Did the different support groups work together, or was there any animosity? Or support? Cooperation?|Sally Hay Did the different support groups work together, or was there any animosity? Or support? Cooperation?]]

Well, for what? And actually waiting for something dreadful that might happen and you don't know what it is, is really quite mean, because something dreadful might happen, but what? And we had heard of dreadful things happening. Mostly what actually happened was groups of pissed up men in Ford, Vauxhall Vivas, or Ford Fiestas drove past, yelling ‘Fucking lezzers’ at us, and calling us dirty, which given that we're sitting in, you know, in mud, so well, you know, what would you do? What would you expect I should be wearing? Court shoes and 10 denier stockings? I mean don’t be ridiculous. Sometimes they were evictions, but those tended to happen not actually at night but at dawn, so it was - they didn't happen in the dark, which I think would have been - I found evictions times of terrible confusion, because you never knew that it was about to happen until they were upon you. And then there was suddenly bailiffs, assisted by police officers - though the police officers didn't actually do anything. But the bailiffs just throwing stuff onto the back of flat pack - not flat pack lorries, what do I mean? Flatbed lorries, I mean don't I? Onto the back of flatbed lorries and just, you know, sometimes it was stuff that was really precious to women, or women had asked us to look after something in particular, and many women have built benders, you know - sort of... [[What is a bender?|Sally Hay What is a bender?]] [[Were the bailiffs actually violent to you?|Sally Hay Were the bailiffs actually violent to you?]]

Plastic over a branch, sort of makeshift tent, or bivouac if you will, and and obviously quite a lot of work had gone into the building of this said Bender, and you needed a piece of plastic anyway, you needed the tarpaulin anyway. And it - protecting that from a bailiff is actually impossible. Because if they'll have come there with this specific mission of clearing the area, they will kick it down, they will throw the plastic away, and then that’s that really. [[Were the bailiffs actually violent to you?|Sally Hay Were the bailiffs actually violent to you?]] [[Can I just ask you - you were saying you were sitting around the fire waiting for something to happen. That sounds very external. Were you waiting for anything from within?|Sally Hay Can I just ask you - you were saying you were sitting around the fire waiting for something to happen. That sounds very external. Were you waiting for anything from within?]]

No. [[It was totally about taking possessions?|Sally Hay No. It was totally about taking possessions?]] [[Can I just ask you - you were saying you were sitting around the fire waiting for something to happen. That sounds very external. Were you waiting for anything from within?|Sally Hay Can I just ask you - you were saying you were sitting around the fire waiting for something to happen. That sounds very external. Were you waiting for anything from within?]]

I, I saw people - women experiencing violence. [[Was that because they had themselves involved themselves initially? Just got in the way?|Sally Hay Was that because they had themselves involved themselves initially? Just got in the way?]] [[Can I just ask you - you were saying you were sitting around the fire waiting for something to happen. That sounds very external. Were you waiting for anything from within?|Sally Hay Can I just ask you - you were saying you were sitting around the fire waiting for something to happen. That sounds very external. Were you waiting for anything from within?]]

I think possibly. I think possibly, I mean, there is a way of being confrontational that will not cause violence, and there is ways of being confrontational, which will get you pushed over. And I think that it's a matter of luck, which happens to be your style. I don't think it's a judgment call on this. You know, I worked as a barrister in a domestic violence for many years later, and then stopped many years ago. So and obviously at court there are scenes of violence with that, and I've been at court where there have been fights at court, and I think that there is something about some people that makes them more likely to get hurt than there is about other people. And I seem to be one of those who doesn't - who seems to, you know, the urge to punch me I'm sure is great in many people, but they don't actually get around to doing so. [[Can I just ask you - you were saying you were sitting around the fire waiting for something to happen. That sounds very external. Were you waiting for anything from within?|Sally Hay Can I just ask you - you were saying you were sitting around the fire waiting for something to happen. That sounds very external. Were you waiting for anything from within?]] [[How long did you maintain a contact with Greenham common, physically - visiting it?|Sally Hay how long did you maintain a contact with Greenham common, physically - visiting it?]]

From within myself? [[No, sorry.|Sally Hay No, sorry.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay No, sorry.]]

Oh, from them? [[Yes.|Sally Hay Yes.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay Yes.]]

Well, that, the night watch, yes. I may be wrong about this, but in my mind, there were occasions when we were just on night watch protecting the gates, and we were allocated different gates at different times, obviously, because different gates had different requirements. But there were other occasions when there were convoys coming out to go over Salisbury Plain, and practice Armageddon - practicing Armageddon, as if that was something that needed much practice. And then this would be something that was more specific, and we would usually sort of form a line across the front of Main Gate, often lighting candles in the path of where the big lorries with the weapons on them would come out. [[Would you know they were coming, or was this a very quick operation?|Sally Hay Would you knew they were coming, or was this a very quick operation?]] [[You would actually know that they were planning an operation?|Sally Hay You would actually know that they were planning an operation?]]

I think people knew in advance, I think the women phoned, and more of us came down to London when we knew that they were planning an operation. [[You would actually know that they were planning an operation?|Sally Hay You would actually know that they were planning an operation?]] [[Was it a case of blocking them from coming out?|Sally Hay And it wasn't just a question of blocking them as they came out?]]

Well, and they often did operations on a Friday night. Now, I’m not quite sure why a Friday night would have been - you’d have thought it'd be worse - the traffic would be worse, really. But, and there were midweek one, which were more difficult for other women in the group to come to because of course they had got jobs to get to in the morning, and if you're coming down from London you're going to be driving around all over Salisbury Plain following convoys of great big weapons, you know, it's difficult get into the office in the morning. But no, we did follow them and block their way, and obstruct them, and just make bloody nuisance of ourselves. [[So you actually went on and followed them on the journey, and actually tried to obstruct them even when they're out on that journey?|Sally Hay So you actually went on and followed them on the journey, and actually tried to obstruct them even when they're out on that journey?]] [[Was it a case of blocking them from coming out?|Sally Hay And it wasn't just a question of blocking them as they came out?]]

Yes. [[And it wasn't just a question of blocking them as they came out?|Sally Hay And it wasn't just a question of blocking them as they came out?]] [[Can you tell me a bit about the different gates?|You did mention earlier about gates and their different functions. I'm aware of the different colours - I don't know what the different colours means. But you mentioned the different functions that go with the colour.]]

Ultimately, you can't stop them coming out. They have, they, they you see the lights coming towards the gate from the inside. Because obviously the lorries have got lights on the front, and you will get across the relevant gate, and then they open the gate, and then they move you on, and then you gradually seep back. And this sort of standoff occurred, you know, for an hour or so, and ultimately they would win. They would get their lorry out, because they've got great big heavy lorries and a police force. And we've got a load of candles. And then, sometimes we would then quickly get into vehicles and follow them, and overtake them and stop in the road, and you know, and there was terrible - this is treason, treason pursuit! And, and this is, you know, obstructing Her Majesty's armaments. There were all sorts of spurious legal twattery talk, excuse me, talked about what was going on. And it was partly the absolute nonsense, the absolute legal nonsense that was being talked, that made me think this is ridiculous. And that's actually why I became a barrister, because this is ridiculous. The police and bailiffs talk nonsense in legalese. And win the day, and I felt no no no. [[So this initial vocabulary or way of speaking was actually coming from the police and the bailiffs?|Sally Hay So this initial vocabulary or way of speaking was actually coming from the police and the bailiffs?]] [[With your interest in law, were you present at any of the Greenham court hearings?|Sally Hay with your interest in law. Did you - were you present at any of the court hearings?]]

Yes, yes, yes. And some of the some of the guards, the perimeter guards, and I remember one of the things that we used to do was go and talk to the perimeter guards, who were you know - guys, young guys, younger than my boys are now, so 18/19, you know, kids - and try, I suppose it sounds terribly patronising - try and explain our position to them. And they weren't uniformly hostile to our position. I mean they were relatively hostile to us cutting the fence with bolt cutters, I think it's reasonable to say, but they weren't uniformly hostile to our position. But they had been given a script of err, things, I think that they were supposed to say to us. And they'd also been told not to engage - not unreasonably, I think if I was trying to command an army, I'd say ‘Don’t talk to the protesters, dear.’ [[So you're talking... and were they on the other side of the fence?|Sally Hay So you're talking... and were they on the other side of the fence?]] [[Were they American?|Sally Hay Were they American?]]

Yes, yes, they would be the other side of the fence. [[Were they American?|Sally Hay Were they American?]] [[You were protesting about nuclear armaments at that point. What are your feelings about nuclear arms now? Does it change?|Sally Hay you were protesting about nuclear armaments at that point. What are your feelings about nuclear arms now? Does it change?]]

Yes, they would be American. Yes. Yeah. They'd often come to the fence and you'd be there with your bolt cutters trying to cut the fence and they'd sort of go (adopts American accent) ‘Oh geez man, please don't do that.’ And we would say ‘Well, we need to come in there, it's common land. And we think you've got something really big and dangerous in there, and we need to get it off the common land because it is dangerous.’ And then they'd say ‘Well, you know, you know I can bring the police - are going to come down and arrest you’. Women were very funny.There was a lot of humour. People would say, ‘All right, but if you could just hold it tight, because it’s easier to snip, and you know, generally take the piss. And I can’t see a pair of wellingtons these days - even now after all these years - without wondering if they’re wide enough to get my leg and the bolt cutters in them. [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I tell you what was different - so the gates all have the same function - though they only took, they only actually took the convoys of weapons out through Red Gate - through Main Gate, but there was traffic in and out of - I suppose soldiers, and supplies, and vans and probably things like food, because they can't have brought it all in from America. Although it was suggested that quite a lot of it was actually you know, freighted in - airfreighted in. What there was, what was different about the gates was different atmospheres among the women at different gates. Extraordinary, but there was a particular atmosphere that I never felt very comfortable at Yellow Gate. You know, and it may have been different personality types and all, because there were relatively few women who were continuously there - women who made their homes say at Green Gate. The few women that were there became their family, and families have different atmospheres, and ways of function don’t they? And I suppose that's how it, I suppose that's what happened. But there were gates, which was like ‘Oh, and they phoned us, and they want us to do Green Gate,’ and you'd be like ‘Uh, really? Okay.’ But there were other gates that made you feel more - I felt more relaxed at. Also I think it's the proximity to the road, as well. [[Because that’s the A34 coming down?|Sally Hay Because that’s the A34 coming down?]] [[You didnt feel comfortable at Yellow Gate?|Sally Hay You said for instance, at the Yellow Gate you felt quite uncomfortable?]]

Yeah. It is. [[The main one?|Sally Hay The main one?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay The main one?]]

The big main road, sitting around a campfire by a big main road is slightly more intimidating than sitting by a campfire by a road where there's not many cars going past, and the chances of somebody yelling abuse at you, or throwing a bucket of pig's blood at you or whatever is relatively minimised by the lack of traffic, and also you see the lights coming. So if you see lights coming, you can be on the sort of alert, have a look, you know assess the situation as whatever it is comes towards you. Maybe they're just going to go past anyway because they’re just somebody going about whatever they're doing. Whereas on, when you're on the main road, every car is a continual source of fear. And that's slightly more tiring. [[Which of the gates made you feel most comfortable?|Sally Hay Which of the gates made you feel most comfortable?]] [[You said earlier that you didnt feel comfortable at Yellow Gate? Can you tell me more about that?|Sally Hay You said for instance, at the Yellow Gate you felt quite uncomfortable?]]

Well, yes, I did. I thought that, oh, isn’t this dreadful. This is dreadful. Just let it be then - I will say it. There are certain women who I've experienced as being more judgmental. You know, I have had then a male partner. I do now, in-fact, have a male partner. I had obviously just had a baby, because I quite often went during the daytime with Emily. I never took my daughter to a night watch - I hadn't got the nerve for that. But it was a, it was a more hostile to women who were in relationships with men atmosphere, and there's also slight sort of like ‘Well you’re not really committed are you? You come down once a week in your red wellingtons and clutter the place up with your fucking lentil curry!’ And I think I felt judged as not quite cool enough. But you know, you reach your own level of what you can and can't do, don’t you? And I, you know, as the years have gone past and I’ve engaged in various other political err, activities, I, I know what I can and can't do and how far I will go. And I'm not going to throw stones at anybody whether they’re policemen or soldiers, I, I couldn't throw a stone. You know, I just, and it's not a moral judgment on people who can actually, I just personally couldn't. And I am a bit wet, and I'm a bit middle class (laughs). [[Which of the gates made you feel most comfortable?|Sally Hay Which of the gates made you feel most comfortable?]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I always liked Purple Gate. Just nice people, and it’s in a nice sort of snug little spot. And we had some, we had some really good nights there. We had some really - nights where people sat around and told stories, and successfully chased off people who were breaking the benders. And you felt, and I felt I had contributed - I had done something - that it all worked, and that we were successfully doing something meaningful. [[As a type of person at Purple Gate - were there particular characteristics?|Sally Hay As a type of person at Purple Gate - were there particular characteristics?]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

They were very gentle, the women at Purple Gate, and I think they were mothers there. I think there are women there with their children, actually. And so the atmosphere was much more um, protective. You know, they were - and they lived there, it was their home. It was not a scene of political action, so much as a home - they had committed to living there. And that decision that some women had managed to make, which is incredibly courageous of them, and you just felt good, and I want to help you. [[And you were happy to bring supplies to help?|Sally Hay And they were happy... to bring supplies to help?]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

To bring supplies to help. And to stay awake all night, so they could get a night's sleep. I wish I could do the staying awake all night! [[I think it’s age!|Sally Hay I think it’s age!]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay I think it’s age!]]

I do remember at Purple Gate once, I was there with my friend Jill. And we were talking to one of the women there who was telling us very interesting stories about her, her travels in India - which at that stage sounded quite impossibly exotic to me, and now I travel quite a bit. But it was - like she'd actually been to Goa. I mean, for heaven's sakes, is there no end to the the exoticism of some people? And I was wearing a little leather ankle boots which had a rubber sole, and they melted and completely stuck to the log against which I was resting them because I was so absorbed, that I hadn't noticed my boots melting. I mean you can't walk on boots once they’ve got a log shaped burnt bit in the sole! And I spent the rest of the weekend, hobbling around like a maniac, completely unable to cope! [[(Laughs). Wonderful.|Sally Hay (Laughs). Wonderful.]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

So, she must've been a very good raconteur! [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

In Alexandra Palace, up by the station end of Alexandra Palace. There is, if you go up towards - in the direction of the playground, but not that far, a bunker. And it is apparently - it is one of those bunkers into which the government was going to put people in the event of a nuclear attack. So it was a nuclear defence bunker. And there was to be an American army manoeuvre that weekend, and I don’t know how we found out, and it was called Operation Lionheart. Serious operation, and they were going to practice in this bunker. And it was to take place in particular week, so we went up the weekend before - the North London Greenham support group, and macraméd it shut! And then set up camp. And it was great, because we were ever so local - we all lived in Muswell Hill at the time. And we had proper tents and - we didn’t have benders, we had tents because we’re very Muswell Hill! And we stayed there all weekend waiting for them to arrive, and when they arrived, it was marvellous because we greeted them ‘Surprise! We’ve knitted it shut.’ And they honestly weren't quite ready for that, and they haven't arrived with a police presence, and of-course they can't do anything because they’re American soldiers, so they can't actually do anything about British citizens. Actually, oddly under the US UK lines agreement actor 1967, which Harold Wilson signed, actually yes, they could, but luckily, they didn't know that - because they aren't lawyers. They're American grunts, basically. So they asked us, (adopts American accent) ‘Ma'am’, to to go away, and to take the knitting, and the fretwork and all - and we said ‘No, no, we’re fine. Thank you. We'll stay.’ Anyway, eventually, it was worked out, and they got some equipment and they removed the knitting. And they went in there where upon we knitted it shut again. I mean obviously they can get out, because it is after all, only yarn. But it was very jolly, and it made the local press, and it rather made the point that there is a nuclear bunker under under Ally Pally. It was always said that there was one under the TUC centre in Crouch End as-well. I'm not sure whether that's true or not. I don’t know. Do you know? [[I don't, no. What size is the Alexandra Palace bunker?|Sally Hay What size is the...]] [[I know a bit about that rumour, yes. What size is the Alexandra Palace Bunker?|Sally Hay What size is the...]]

Oh it’s not very big. Smaller than this kitchen, I would say. [[No! (Laughs).|Sally Hay No! (Laughs).]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay No! (Laughs).]]

Bigger - apparently it’s bigger underneath, it sort of opens out, but the entrance is the smallest bit - presumably the bunker would be larger underneath. I mean... [[It depends how many people they’re trying to secrete down.|Sally Hay It depends how many people they’re trying to secrete down.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay It depends how many people they’re trying to secrete down.]]

And what - they must have electricity and water and... [[Supplies.|Sally Hay Supplies.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay Supplies.]]

...communications and supplies. I mean there must be quite a lot down there to even consider putting people down a hole the size of this kitchen. I don’t know. Obviously they didn't invite us in - which was rude! [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Probably til, probably until about ‘87 or ‘88, I think. And then there was obviously the weapons have gone, which minimised - but my family lived in Cirencester, in-fact - down the M4. And I used to come off the motorway when I was driving back from seeing my mother or whatever, and just drive around the common - just to see if there was still, and there were people at Green Gate for a very long time afterwards. But the other gates not so, but there were often just bits of wool, posters, photographs, you know, on - on the gate - on the fences for many years afterwards. So, then I started, in fact, at, err, I did a conversion degree and converted my philosophy degree into a law degree. And then did the bar straight afterwards in one of these fast stream things which involves, you know, doing 12 months at university for a year rather than the 6 months with my.. And so I was, I left my partner at the time, so I was working... [[When is this? Around about sort of ‘88/‘87?|Sally Hay So we’re around about sort of ‘88/‘87?]] [[With your interest in law, were you present at any of the Greenham court hearings?|Sally Hay with your interest in law. Did you - were you present at any of the court hearings?]]

Yeah, ‘87/‘88, and I left my partner and I started bar school. And I became very focused on that, actually, at that time, and sort of, I think drifted away into other things for a bit. [[With your interest in law, were you present at any of the Greenham court hearings?|Sally Hay with your interest in law. Did you - were you present at any of the court hearings?]] [[Over the past 25 years, what do you feel have been the main societal changes for women?|Sally Hay Over the past 25 years, what do you feel have been the main societal changes for women?]]

No, but I heard about many of them. And I was surprised at the extent - this is dreadful, but I really am a good middle class girl. I was brought up by two doctors in the Midlands, you know, I went to a grammar school, you know, honestly, I am not an ‘out there terrorist’. And so I was really surprised to find that the police lied about people. I mean, honestly, it was a surprise. Now, obviously, after 30 years, a lawyer - it’s absolutely par for the course, isn't it? And I realised that it happens all the time, and that people don't have the same issues about... [[Is it lying, or is it different reporting of the same event?|Sally Hay Is it lying, or is it different reporting of the same event?]] [[Was that the actual statements - verbal statements? Or where they've literally gone back and doctored?|Sally Hay And it was the actual statements - verbal statements. It wasn't sort of a little bit like Hillsborough, where they've literally gone back and doctored?]]

Normally I think it's different reporting of the same events. I'm a great believer in, and all my clients at some point or other hear me saying ‘It's much more likely it was a cock-up than a conspiracy, and most things are a cock-up, not a conspiracy.’ But, there are out and out ‘She swung a punch at me’, that, you know, I knew had not happened. I was there, I saw it. She did not. I never saw a woman kick, punch or spit. And you know, the police statements said that women did that, and they didn't. They just didn't. I saw women swearing. I saw women um, blocking - you know, obstructing - if you want to charge people for obstruction, probably, yeah - okay. There was a lot of obstruction going on. But I did not see women exacting violence on police officers, and I know that the statements that the police made in Newbury magistrates courts frequently said that they did. [[And it was the actual statements - verbal statements? Or where they've literally gone back and doctored?|Sally Hay And it was the actual statements - verbal statements. It wasn't sort of a little bit like Hillsborough, where they've literally gone back and doctored?]] [[This is why we need our own lawyers.|Sally Hay And this is what's changed your whole journey?]]

No, these, these were - they take taking people into custody overnight and producing them before the first bench available the next morning. So no, this didn't have the time for the sort of Hilsborough shenanigans, and it didn't have the time. You know, when I first started doing criminal law, police officers would say ‘And we went back to the station and made up our notebooks’. And you always wanted to say ‘Yeah, probably in your case literally, mate.’ Um, but these were not that sort of statements. This was - like a drunk is arrested, and produced in the first available court in the morning, and the officer reads out from his notebook in court. So this is what they wrote at the time, and they were writing that ‘I saw the lady I now recognise to be Miss Anne R Key throwing a punch at officer So and So.’ And no, she didn't. And I think that.. I think that I was shocked by. And that was one of the things that I thought no, no, no, we need, we need our own lawyers. [[And this is what's changed your whole journey?|Sally Hay And this is what's changed your whole journey?]] [[Did the Greenham Women have a representation - any legal representation - when they went into into the courts?|Sally Hay Did the women have a representation - any legal representation - when they went into into the courts?]]

Yeah, yeah, we need our own lawyers. I mean, and I maintain that we still do in relation to women who have been victims of domestic - or people who have been victims of domestic violence. It's not just women, but you know, the victims of domestic violence, the - need their lawyers. The homeless, the refugees - they need their own lawyers. They need people with an understanding of their situation who are coming from a position, which is not judge them before it starts. [[Did the Greenham Women have a representation - any legal representation - when they went into into the courts?|Sally Hay Did the women have a representation - any legal representation - when they went into into the courts?]] [[

Sometimes. Yes, there were - there were - the chambers that I subsequently joined, and in-fact became head of, um - we always did free representation, for Greenham women. We also always did free representation for the South African embassy, actually - protestors, not the embassy itself obviously - the protesters, and various other. And I know Hodge, Jones and Allen always did free representation. So there were, you know, the human rights, left wing, the radical lawyers there already. People like Jane Hoyle and Robert Layton, were out there doing it, and did come down and represent the Greenham women at court. [[And were they men and women representing?|Sally Hay And were they men and women representing?]] [[Do you regard yourself as a feminist?|Sally Hay Do you regard yourself as a feminist?]]

Yes. In those days it was predominantly men. Yeah. I mean, even when I started I was called to bar in 1989. And even when I started (laughs), it was so long ago! [[No, no! I’m thinking of what you went through.|Sally Hay No, no! I’m thinking of what you went through.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay No, no! I’m thinking of what you went through.]]

Because I had my daughter, and no visible means of financial support, I had to do it very quickly because I didn't have the money to do it at a leisurely pace. So I was called in July 1989, and even then, I think women were less than 20% of barristers at that time, and now we're more than 50% - although not of the judiciary. (Laughs). There is still a glass ceiling there. [[Interesting. Um...|Sally Hay Interesting. Um...]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay Interesting. Um...]]

Funny enough, I was talking to, this is a complete side issue, I was talking to someone or other - the kids actually over Christmas, and we were talking about clothes, because Emily and I went to the - I brought my daughter along to the party that they had for this - before Christmas, and it said ‘Dress code: well wear whatever you like, we’re totally sick of women being told what they should wear’, which we both rather enjoyed. And my husband Martin said ‘I remember the day you came home and said they’ve said we can wear trousers to court.’ And I do - I remember being in the robing room somewhere, and some woman came in and said ‘The Lord Chancellor’s just said women can wear trousers into court.’ And we would literally ‘No! (Sounds shocked). No!’ I wouldn’t dare - obviously by the end of my career, I wore trousers to court everyday. But it was very recently in my life, but it's all a long, long time ago. [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I can’t remember there being any animosity, I think that um... [[You didn't feel others were stronger than you?|Sally Hay You didn't feel others were stronger than you?]] [[What did you do, or how did you raise funds as a group?|Sally Hay What did you do, or how did you raise funds as a group?]]

They probably were, but I didn't know about it, but there wasn't much liaison, but then again, collectively there weren’t many telephones.. Certainly weren’t mobile phones then, were there? I don't remember when they started, but there weren't then.. [[Bricks at the beginning of the ‘90s, I think.|Sally Hay Bricks at the beginning of the ‘90s, I think.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay afterphones]]

Yeah, maybe that's right. Yeah, maybe - but I didn't even have a phone in the flat then, I didn't have a landline at home until after I qualified - terribly proud! [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay afterphones]] [[I bet!|Sally Hay afterphones]]

So, communication was by letters, which did it - now if you asked people, the age now that we were then, to organise a million women to go, 100,000 women to go and hold hands round a facility in Newbury, but (adopts strict voice) you may only use paper and pen. They'd be like, ‘No, that is literally impossible!’ But it wasn't - it was done by letter. And I know that Sue Roffie had all the letters. I don't know if she still does, because she's such a - she, you know, coordinated the...and there was a certain amount - sometimes people referred to suspicion that the home office were listening in to phone calls. Which I mean, I have no evidence either way, just seems so unlikely. But I don’t know. Because there was a lot more - we were a lot nearer the Reds under the Beds scares, weren't we? We were a lot nearer the Cold War and people killing each other with poisoned umbrellas in Berkeley Square or whatever it was. And I just read a book actually about the female spies in the 1960s. But we did carry on spying quite intensively for quite a long time. I knew Stella Rimmington and she knows, obviously, a great deal about it. And I think it was - because she was also a trustee of Refuge, which is a charity with which I later became involved. And, but there was quite of spying went on - whether it was actually spying on Greenham women or not, I wouldn't know. I suppose it’ll come out under the 30 years rule. [[What did you do, or how did you raise funds as a group?|Sally Hay What did you do, or how did you raise funds as a group?]]

Selling cakes and baking cake. Other people knitted things - I unfortunately had no capacity for that sort of carry on. And we had jumble sales, which is sort of pre eBay wasn’t it! (Laughs). [[So it was on a very domestic...|Sally Hay So it was on a very domestic...]] [[Interesting. During the period that you were - I assume you were you were working while you were going backwards and forwards to Greenham common?|Sally Hay Interesting. During the period that you were - I assume you were you were working while you were going backwards and forwards to Greenham common?]]

A very domestic level, and there wasn't, you know, we had a stall usually either in Muswell Hill High Street or Crouch End High Street on a Saturday morning, and had buckets so people could, you know, contribute. But that was about it. [[Interesting. During the period that you were - I assume you were you were working while you were going backwards and forwards to Greenham common?|Sally Hay Interesting. During the period that you were - I assume you were you were working while you were going backwards and forwards to Greenham common?]] [[How did you support yourself?|Sally Hay How did you support yourself?]]

Yes. [[Yes. How did you support yourself? You had a job, then you were studying?|Sally Hay Yes. How did you support yourself? You had a job, then you were studying?]] [[Which individuals and events were of particular influence or particular significance to you?|Sally Hay which individuals and events were of particular influence or particular significance to you in your - why you changed direction?]]

Yeah. [[You had your little girl to support too?|Sally Hay You were a single mum?]] [[How did you support yourself?|Sally Hay How did you support yourself?]]

Yeah. [[How did you support yourself?|Sally Hay How did you support yourself?]] [[What's been the legacy for your children as a result of Greenham common?|Sally Hay what's been the legacy for your daughter, your sons as well, as a result of Greenham common?]]

Well funny enough I did market research interviewing in an evening. Which was door to door, because they weren’t telephone interviewing then, well then I didn’t have a phone, so that would have been a total wash out. I just did little jobs. [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

My sister, is - she and I - people always say ‘You’re so different. How did that happen?’ She is a committee member of the golf club in the Cotswolds. And, you know, she's a nice, she's a decent human being, but she has always voted Tory. [[Is she older or younger?|Sally Hay Is she older or younger?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay Is she older or younger?]]

She’s two years older than me. She's always voted Conservative. She won the Posture Prize at school. I was never going to win the Posture Prize at school! And she was made a prefect - clearly I was never going to be made a prefect if anything! I think I was once milk bodger, but that was about it. Do you remember those little....that was about it. And my sister is very, um she sort of dressed like - at that time when I was at Greenham, she dressed like Princess Diana, and drove a VW Golf. But, and everybody disapproved of me somewhat. Well, actually time limited, I’ve been 60 years of virtually constant familial disapproval has been my lot. I am a complete washout in my family. My family would not send me out to buy stamps. But she came and visited me at Greenham once, and it's one of those bright stars of - so her contempt for me is not complete, that stands out, that she, I remember her, and she was virtually in a twin set and pearls, picking across the mud at Greenham. And I don’t really remember - I remember being very confused as to whether I was pleased to see her, or embarrassed by her. Or ashamed of how absolutely filthy, you know, suddenly caught sight of myself in her eyes and realised that, you know, I was a matted mess! (Laughs). As so often appears to be the case. So, in terms of my family, my mother would had been very shocked by my father's death, which happened when he was 52. So looking back, that was very.. [[And what age were you at that stage?|Sally Hay And what age were you at that stage?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay Right. So this is actually at the same time as Greenham is going on?]]

I was 21 when dad died. [[Right. So this is actually at the same time as Greenham is going on?|Sally Hay Right. So this is actually at the same time as Greenham is going on?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay Right. So this is actually at the same time as Greenham is going on?]]

Yeah. And so my mother was neither in a position to approve or condemn, she was totally wrapped up in her justifiable grief, really. So what mum thought about it, I don't know. I know that, I know that a couple of my aunts were terribly amused by the whole thing and used to send me, you know, specially warm jumpers for (adopts posh voice) Greenham common, my dear! Sent down from Edinburgh where they do the warm jumpers on a rather large scale, which was great. Because, you know, that sort of acknowledgment rather than support is, is, is always lovely, isn't it? In relation to Steve who is Emily's father, um, Steve nominally completely supported it, but I know that he was knocked that I was - that men had been excluded from the Greenham thing. And that I was doing something independently of him, because he was a politico - still is, in-fact, a real, you know, out there politico was going down to Wapping and having fights at Wapping. And I remember one particular occasion when we were having a meeting round at Sue Roffie’s, which was about a mile or two’s walk from where we lived, and I had left him with Emily - who was a breastfed baby, but I had left - do you remember, I don’t know if they still do it - the expressing milk - laugh! It's awful! And dreadful, but I had left two bottles of expressed milk and a bottle of sterilised water, in-case of her waking up, and I was only out for about 2 hours anyway. But I remember him walking around to Sue Roffie’s, with Emily wrapped in a vast quantity of woollen fabric, and thundering, thunderously hammering on the door and saying ‘You have abandoned your baby.’ Yes, and I said ‘Well didn’t you give her the bottle?’ And I remember him saying, and she would have been like 6 months old - ‘She glared at me, and tried to punch me’, oh for fuck’s sake, she’s a baby! And he was terribly supportive notionally. But as with, in-fact, my flipping studies at the bar which involve done dining in all, you have to go and eat dinner - for god’s sake, 24 times and he would always say he would babysit and it knocks me when men call being at home alone with their babies ‘babysitting’ because it’s ridiculous and, and he would babysit and then would fail to turn up. Would fail to turn up home from work, and let me down, so I was constantly having to cancel dining arrangements. And I was constantly having to cancel grading meetings, because in-fact he would subvert it. And in-fact, I think the reality is that it wasn't the only fact, by no means, but it was one of the factors of me becoming less of a nice girl, becoming more an independent woman, and someone with my own views, and someone who would do things independently of him. And ultimately, that didn't work. [[At what time did you actually split?|Sally Hay At what time did you actually split?]] [[How pivotal do you think Greenham common itself was in the way in which you conducted yourself - the movement?|Sally Hay How pivotal do you think Greenham common itself was in the way in which you conducted yourself - the movement?]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I would have left him in 1988. [[Right so before you’d actually got to the bar?|Sally Hay Right so before you’d actually got to the bar?]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yeah. Yes I was a student. [[Which individuals and events were of particular influence or particular significance to you?|Sally Hay which individuals and events were of particular influence or particular significance to you in your - why you changed direction?]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

There were a few individuals whose influence - people who I saw as being able to put a political or moral thought into action. Who I therefore admired I admired Pat Arrowsmith enormously. Although she is socially quite difficult. People find her difficult to get on with. And I remember my mother saying ‘Oh Pat Arrowsmith. They left the country in ‘56 in the Cuban Missile Crisis, she and somebody else had left the country and they were - you know, so that's how much committed they are to...’ [[How did she know that?|Sally Hay How did she know that?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay influence2]]

I have no idea! [[Wow.|Sally Hay influence2]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay influence2]]

I cannot imagine how my mother knew that. But she had some particular objection to Pat. Very strange, but I remember hearing actually, oh, what's his name? It's just gone. I can picture his face. Head of CND at the time, man, Christian, and anyway - I was later stranded on a train with him many years later, in a snowstorm, funnily enough. And he was awfully good. And they said they were going to throw us all off the train, although the train was clearly going to head in the direction we needed to be going. Um - Bruce - Bruce, his first name’s Bruce...it’ll come back. And I said ‘Well, in that case, I'm just going to stand here in the doorway.’ And he laughed, and I said ‘I know who you are. You're as capable of direct action as I am.’ And he said, ‘You're absolutely right. I'll get the next door along!’ And the two of us stood there and held the doors open until they let us back on the train. But, it was Pat Arrowsmith, but it was also not the sort of superstars as Pat really was of the movement, because Pat had given her whole life over to CND. It was people like Maggie, and Sue Roffie, who were working - both of them as social workers at the time, which always seemed to me a terribly admirable way to comport yourself, and had children, and had partners, but who were absolutely on point on taking direct action. And I do remember in the early days when the miners’ strike started, we were talking about the miners’ strike and I was saying ‘This is so dreadful because they’ve been very violent towards the police.’ [[Are you talking about the one at the end of the ‘80s?|Sally Hay Are you talking about the one at the end of the ‘80s?]] [[Keep listening quietly|Sally Hay miners strike]]

Yes, yeah. [[Thanks.|Sally Hay miners strike]] [[Keep listening quietly|Sally Hay miners strike]]

And Sue Roffie was saying ‘No. It's the police who are being violent towards the miners.’ And opening up a whole new, a whole - because I would be reading The Guardian at this time on a daily basis. And The Guardian was pretty anti-miners, actually - in the early stages, and opening up a whole new line of periodicals and literature for me to read. And so by the time Orgreave happened, realising that what was going on was not as it was portrayed in the mainstream - press as it was then, media as it would now be, and I didn't have a telly so it wouldn't have been the media particularly, it would have been the radio and The Guardian. And I think it was opening up a wider political stance to me, so that when I um, qualified and was looking for where I should apply for a tenancy, it had by them become obvious that I needed to apply to human rights sets, left wing sets, and I did. And I saw another friend who was also at Greenham - Sally Bradley, the other day - Christmas Day, actually, bumped into her on the heath. And Sally had been going out with a bloke called Andrew Gunbartizunoto (spelled phonetically), who was a member of Ten Kings Bench Walk, which was the chambers to which I applied. And I had a terrible interview there, because they were talking about - I have enormous boobs and good legs. And I also had a small child at the time, and this was the entire focus of the interview. And I came out absolutely shattered. And I told Sally about this. And she'd gone and screamed abuse at Andrew that night, and said, you know, ‘Left wing, human rights set - and this is how a single mother is treated?’ Because it's not bloody easy getting through the bar finals in 24 months. Um, you know, someone who's worked - for god’s sake! And their head of chambers phoned me in my flat and said ‘We've reported ourselves to bar council, because we've had a meeting and realised that we've behaved in a way in what is now called a sexist way towards you, and this is what's called discriminatory. And we are very sorry about it. So we have reported ourselves to the bar council.’ And I said ‘I'm perfectly well aware of what discrimination means. And, frankly, everybody else got 20 minutes on the law. And I got 19 minutes on the size of my tits. I want 20 minutes on the law.’ And he said ‘Tell me about the sexual discrimination legislation that's current at the moment.’ And so I did, because I'd had a glass of wine and I was very cross, and we got to the end of it, and I said ‘So am I going to get my interview and my 20 minutes on the law? And he said ‘You've got the tenancy’. And that was actually the start of my career. [[What a wonderful story.|Sally Hay What a wonderful story.]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. And so whenever I see Sally on the heath, it's always, you know, but she was at Greenham too. [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think there is still discrimination. Obviously there is - there are not women at the top of any of the professions, or industry or commerce, I suppose. However, I am impressed by the extent to which young men these days seem to acknowledge young women as equals in a way that I don't think that we were acknowledged as equals. My sons - I see them behaving in non discriminatory ways. Um, and they do challenge every time, you know, they are - they open the discussion every time. Now, you may say ‘Well, your sons would, because they'd be terrified not to.’ [[What do you mean by 'open the conversation'?|Sally Hay what do you mean by open the conversation?]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

If they hear someone being treated in, in a bad way, they will challenge it. And I don't think we did. Fred and I - my eldest son and I, who is 23 now, walked into Waitrose - I’m sorry, I really am dreadful! - Just before Christmas, and a bloke said, who was selling The Big Issue, ‘Happy Noel, Happy Noel, Happy Noel’, and a woman walking past him rather faster than us said to him ‘You don't even know what Noel means, and you certainly couldn’t spell it.’ [[(Gasp)|Sally Hay (Gasps).]] [[Keep listening quetly..|Sally Hay (Gasps).]]

And I sort of, you know, bristled a bit and Fred suddenly hurried - faster, faster than I walk, and trotted in front of her and said ‘Excuse me. I wondered why you chose to make an unkind remark for somebody who's clearly got learning difficulties? Were you commenting on the fact that he's clearly Muslim, from Muslim background as well? Or did that just come out of your..? Does it matter why he can't spell Noel? I just thought it was rude, and you might like to get back and apologise to him?’ And I thought, my work here is done. But in terms of women, I, it was interesting, wasn't it? I don't if you had - I had the 10 O'Clock News on last night to see what's going on about Brexit, of-course, and then all the correspondents are female. You know, it was a woman news anchor, Laura Kunnsberg seems to be the world's biggest expert on Brexit that's - I mean admittedly let John Pienaar in for a bit, but there were other - and the women that were commenting on things like finance, and I noticed it just last night, and thinking that wasn't the case - newsreaders were a man called so and so. Having said which, there is everyday sexism out there. It is happening all the time. But the fact is that the young women are picking it up more and noticing it more, and challenging it more. And so I think there is an improvement, but there is work yet to be done. [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

For me personally, I think it was absolutely pivotal. I think it gave me a confidence and a focus which I probably wouldn't have had otherwise. Societally I don’t know. I know now that some of my son's friends don't know what Greenham common was. And they're studying history - it’s like Jesus! I remember when I started dating my current husband, I've only had the two so it's alright! But he is from a very, very, very different background to me. He's North London Jewish, much more monied than I was ever from, and all his mates were in business rather than in the law or social work, which all my mates were, and would talk about the girls in the office, and because I'd been at Greenham I would always say ‘You employ children? I am surprised.’ And it became clear ‘Oh god, you're one of those ‘wimen’ - with an ‘i’. That actually language is absolutely crucial. We will change - we can only change the world really effectively by changing language, and by challenging language which is of itself discriminatory. And so every time I pick it up, every time I challenged it, and I remember Martin's uncles, my husband's Iranian. And so these Iranian gentlemen came over when our sons were born, and they heard that I worked outside the house, ‘But why? Martin, can't you support your wife? This is terrible.’ It’s like ‘No no, I choose to work. And any way I have a daughter whom I support.’ ‘What she doesn't have a father that supports her?' ‘No, I support her.’ ‘So what do you do?’ ‘Well, I’m a barrister, actually.’ (Gasps). ‘And how much they pay you for this?’ I remember saying ‘Well my current charge out rate is £500 an hour, what about yours?’ And there was just this horror. But Greenham gave me the confidence to think I can do it, and to challenge it, and to say - and challenge police officers in the street. You don't see sexism on the street, but you do see racism on the street. You do see, you know, I saw somebody, some guy outside the refugee centre actually, being asked to turn out his bag on the street. Nothing - he had done nothing except for being a black bloke in a posh area. You know, I think Greenham gave me the confidence, and I think women, whether women would have gained that, more generally in the time span or whether it made, Greenham actually made a difference or not, I don't think it's possible to say - how would one know? Because you're never going to conduct a sort of blind testing on that, are you? Um, I think - I still, some of Martin’s old mates still tease me and say ‘Oh well, Greenham. Didn’t make the slightest bit of difference, did it? They were going to remove the weapons when they did anyway. So all that sitting around in mud was utterly futile.’ That may or may not be right. Again, I just don't know. But I think that it was really important that there were the group of Welsh women who said ‘No.’ And the rest of us said ‘What she said - I'm with her.’ I was really actually very pleased, Emily sent me some ridiculous pictures of her children, at the - one of the Brexit marches, the other day. And she's got a little boy and a little girl. And they were each holding a placard with an arrow on it and Alfie’s said ‘Not in her name’, and Ella’s said ‘Not in his name’. And they were walking along at this march holding their placards, and there was a nice equality and justice about that. But there was also the sense that ordinary people can get out there on the street, and I taught my daughter that if she thinks it's wrong, she gets out there with her children on the street and says so, and that's (Sally becomes emotional), I’m proud of that. She knocked her teeth out of the back of the sofa when she was about 4. And when I took her to Eastman Dental Hospital, holding them in like this, is as went, hoping fallaciously, in-fact, that you can make them reset. You can't - if you knock your front teeth out, that's it. But luckily they were baby teeth, so what the heck. But and we got there and they said ‘What were you doing, dear?’ And she said ‘Oh, I was climbing over the fence breaking into Greenham common.’ [[(Laugh)|Sally Hay (Laughs).]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I said ‘She wasn't, she was climbing over the back of the sofa, actually!’ But that was, you know, when she was 4, which would have been in 1988, that was what she was doing - she was climbing over the fence. [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think - I know that I mean for Emily it’s, Emily is aware that she was there. And she was very touched to come and - I saw Sheila Noiling at that event just before Christmas, and Sheila gave Emily a Greenham Women are everywhere badge. And Emily was terribly pleased with this, because, you know, she's, it's been part of her life, ever since she can remember, of-course. She's 34 now, she's got 3 children, and she wears it on her jacket - and I wear mine on my jacket at the moment. For her, it's always been important, it’s something she’s always been aware of. The boys didn't become aware of it because obviously they - they’re younger, they're 21 and 23, as I say, so they - it wasn't part of their daily lives. But Fred brought his girlfriend home just before - for my 60th birthday in November, in-fact, the first time I met her. And she's the Green Party candidate in Bristol so I mean you know, very serious young woman, very nice, actually - what a relief! [[Result!|Sally Hay Result!]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay Result!]]

Result! She constitutes a result! And um, Fred started introducing me to her, and said ‘And actually mum was at Greenham common,’ and I thought it’s interesting, Fred, that you should choose that as one of the things to say about me. And so I think it does make a difference to them. I mean, I am now - I think they think I'm scary. I think I am now scary. I don’t think I was scary when I went to Greenham, I think I was scared. And I don’t think I'm particularly scary. They should meet Pat Arrowsmith if they want to meet scary! And others are a lot more frightening than me, but equally, they know that they cannot get away with a casual sexist, racist remark. And they know that the thing that they could most say to horrify me, when they actually were trying to say things to horrify me the other day was like ‘I joined the army’. You know, they know that that would really horrify me. [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

No, exactly the same. I was thinking about this actually, when I was thinking about you coming. I was thinking about this and thinking it remains an abomination. Obviously, I think that because the Cuban Missile Crisis was a lot closer to - chronologically, and we've now had peace for - we haven't had peace - definitely haven’t globally had peace, but the threat since the Berlin Wall came down, you don't hear about it. I think that people lived with the daily sense that it was possible that there’d be a nuclear strike in the ‘70s and ‘80s. And I don't think that people do live with that. Now, I might be wrong. There may be people who still do fear that on a regular basis, but I imagine in smaller numbers, and certainly I don't anymore - I think that, but do you remember ‘Protect and Survive’, the government was still issuing literature suggesting you sat under the kitchen table in the event of a nuclear attack, because that would be bound to work! [[I was just going to say I remember having a roll of tarred brown paper in our cellar ready to cut! (Laughs).|Sally Hay I was just going to say I remember having a roll of tarred brown paper in our cellar ready to cut! (Laughs).]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay I was just going to say I remember having a roll of tarred brown paper in our cellar ready to cut! (Laughs).]]

And you know, with the best will in the world, that was never going to work! And so, I don’t think - that I'm sure if you live in Korea, you probably do think about it. Um, but in the UK I don't think one does as much - though I wouldn't put anything past Donald Trump. Who may or may not be a Russian spy. (Laughs). [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. [[You do?|Sally Hay You do?]] [[And what is your definition of a feminist?|Sally Hay And what is your definition of a feminist?]]

Absolutely. [[And what is your definition of a feminist?|Sally Hay And what is your definition of a feminist?]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Well, I think Caitlin Moran put it best in her ‘How to be a Woman’ book, which is ‘If you if you look in your pants, and you notice that there isn't a penis there, and you don't think that undermines your capacity in any way, then you're a feminist.’ [[(Laugh).|Sally Hay (Laughs).2]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Sally Hay (Laughs).2]] [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I was talking to, and this is name dropping, I was talking to Lynne Featherstone, Baroness Featherstone, the other day, just because she's just had the same illness as I had a few years ago, and we were comparing notes on what one does about that. And I was saying you know, I don't always want to be confronting, but I find myself constantly confronting. I tried to buy a replacement vacuum cleaner the other day. And they said Miss or Mrs when I placed the order. It was like really? Really? I said - ‘What do you say? How do you deal with that?’ She said ‘Oh, I tell them to fuck off. It's none of your business.’ I thought yes, well that would do it, really, that would do it. But that's about right, isn't it? It's - why? Why?! In this day and age, does anyone still ask that question? Okay, if it's on a form in front of someone who's working in a shop, then they're going to ask the question because it's on the form in front of them. But somebody designs that form, and that somebody must have had an education - who are they? If I book a flight online, British Airways still ask - British Airways still ask! What?! How did the last - my mother qualified as a GP in, I think 1948, and there weren't that many women doctors in 1948. And she does exasperate me, because she says ‘Well, of course, there was no discrimination in my day.’ Really? No discrimination at all? ‘Well, no. But I mean, you knew that some of them were a bit touchy. And you know, you had to sort of not go alone in a room with Dr so and so’. No no no, Mum! Fearing imminent sexual harassment from your superiors at work, is, is not a lack of discrimination. ‘Oh, yes, but we just patted him away and said, on your way, Neville!’ It exasperates me that some women continue to deny there's a problem, when there's manifestly still a problem. [[Thank Sally Hay, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. [[So I guess you didn't move straight in from wherever you were living at the time? So what was the route?|Maggie Parks So I guess you didn't move straight in from wherever you were living at the time? So what was the route?]] [[What was - if there was such a thing - what was an average day like?| Maggie Parks what would - if there was such a thing - what was an average day like?]]

My journey? [[Yeah (chuckle).|Maggie Parks Yeah (chuckles).]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Yeah (chuckles).]]

So I was born in 1952 in the slums of Jarrow, my granddad was on the Jarrow hunger march. [[Oh, right.|Maggie Parks Oh, right.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Oh, right.]]

And um... [[Up in the northeast?|Maggie Parks Up in the northeast?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Up in the northeast?]]

Up in the northeast, and um my grandmother was very politically active in getting one of the first women MPs in the northeast into parliament. So I sort of come from, from very poor beginnings, but also a sort of politically active background. So it's really interesting, although my parents were in no way political whatsoever. And then, of course, I grew, we moved from the northeast and we moved to Malvern, which is very posh. And I ended up being a working class kid on a council estate going to a very posh grammar school, which was again, very informative about privilege, privilege and injustice and all of that sort of stuff. So I think from a very early age, I just had this massive sense of social injustice. And I grew up with two sisters. So it was interesting that my home life was very female orientated. I was in an all girls’ school, and um, loved being around women. So and then, of course, had my teenage years I was 16 in 1968 when the big social revolution was going on. So I was a hippie chick walking around um, with no shoes on. And then, and so I worked for the probation service. I did community work work for the probation services in my late teens and early 20s. And again, had this very strong sense of social justice, and understood privilege and politics, I think I called myself a socialist when I was 14, but was never really, I don't know, I was never really part of anything. So although I was political, I never joined a party. I never really got involved in anything. And so my journey into Greenham was was really quite interesting. I'd been to a women's consciousness raising group in my early 20s, at one of our local communes, and um, hadn't - it hadn't caught me. It was really interesting - hadn't caught me, I thought, because I by then was very self sufficient. I was in my early 20s and I was working, and I'd got my own flat and I you know, I was a bit into sex drugs and rock and roll you know, I was having quite a good time and and I remember coming out of that meeting and thinking all these middle class women, they seem to be moaning about men, but actually, I think they're just moaning about their own man. And, and so I didn't, I didn't quite get it in a way, it was it was interesting, although I really understood, you know, social injustice. I didn't quite get feminism, not in a real way. And um, so it was interesting. And it wasn't until, so I was 30 when I went to Greenham and I, actually it was a massive turning point in my life, and I still to this day, and I'm 66, I still see my life as before Greenham, and after Greenham. [[So it was pivotal?|Maggie Parks So it was pivotal?]] [[Hmm.|Maggie Parks Hmm.]]

Massive, it was the most life changing thing that happened to me, and I think because it coincided with actually the ending of a long term relationship. Um, with a man, when I, in the end of my 20s we’d been together 7/8 years, and the death of my very beloved father at the age of 58. So I see it, it's really interesting, as sort of coincidental with losing men out of my life. So the two sort of biggest influences that had been in my life and so it was a very interesting journey. [[Hmm.|Maggie Parks Hmm.]] [[How did you find coming into contact with other female influences - particularly the more extreme hardline feminists, particularly from America, who were against penetrative sex, and anti men - how did you find coming into contact with them?|Maggie Parks I'm wondering about how it felt when the other female influences - particularly the more extreme hardline feminists, particularly from America, who were against penetrative sex, and anti men - how did you find coming into contact with them?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Hmm.]]

I'd been living in a Ibiza for a year, and I came back in October 1982. Um, and my father died at the end of that October. So, my going to Greenham was, so, so before and after, was also to do with with trauma, the death of, the very early death of my father. So, but they’re so inextricably linked for me, I can't, I can't divide them, it's very interesting. And so I'd come back to this country and and I, you know, came back to my hometown and met up with friends and I'd always been interested in the anti-nuclear stuff. There’d been a lot going on in the sort of late ‘70s, early ‘80s. And um, I’d been and seen, you know, all the war game films and stuff like that. And so I came back and I'd only obviously been home for a couple of months, and people started asking me if I was going to go to Embrace the Base, which was December 1982. And I said, ‘Oh, I don't know what it's about’. But I sort of remember being in a pub, an old Irish pub, my dad was Irish, and I can almost, I kept hearing Greenham, it was like on the wind and everywhere I went there was Greenham, and somebody said ‘Oh, there’s a coach going down from Worcester, are you're going to go?’ and I'm a bit of a commitment-phobe so I said, I don't know I'd never bought a ticket. But on the the day before the Embrace, I decided to get in my car and drive there. So I was, I hadn't got a clue really what I was going into it was, it was extraordinary. And so I drove down there with a sleeping bag in the back of my car. I mean, I've never been to Newbury, I'd never been to the base didn't know but I parked my car somewhere. And there were just thousands of women I caught, I couldn't believe it, really. And um, I was walking down the road. I thought, where am I going to go? Where am I going to be? How am I going to do this? Where am I going to sleep? And I was walking down the road, and I saw this figure coming towards me, and it was a woman called Carol who lived in my hometown who I didn't know particularly well. But I said, she said ‘What are you doing here?!’ And we had literally both arrived independently in our cars. So it was suddenly like I had someone to be with. And you if you're going to take part in the action, they wanted you to go and register. So around the base, there were these different tents where you could go and sign up because obviously they wanted to keep track of everybody. And they wanted to completely blockade the base. So Carol and I headed for the tent. [[Um-hum.|Maggie Parks Um-hum.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Um-hum.]]

Yeah. Headed for the tent, and it was very organized. There were women with walkie talkies, there were tables all set up, and the registration forms, and all sorts of things. Carol and I were in a queue to register, and we suddenly heard some women just a little bit ahead of us in the queue talking. And it turned out that they were from Worcester, which is like, eight miles. [[Yeah. Yeah.|Maggie Parks Yeah. Yeah.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Yeah. Yeah.]]

Which was, again, extraordinary. So I think there are about four or five of them. So we met up with them. And suddenly we just had what, what a.. Greenham are called affinity groups, because um, you had to, you know, you had to be in a group, you couldn't just go off on your own and do actions, and um, there was training, safety warnings, stuff like that. So immediately, I had this little gang, um, which was sort of, sort of bit serendipitous, really, and very exciting. And I think we had a bit, I can't remember, I think we had a bit of training, but we were sent off to this little gate somewhere on the base that we were meant to blockade. And um, we couldn't find it. It was it was very weird, we couldn't find it. And so we all hung out together. And I think we slept in a tent on the ground somewhere. I can't remember all of that. And then on the morning of I think, I don't know, I think it was, I thought I'd never forget the date, I think it was December the 2nd or December the 8th. Um, we all went off and I think I don't know what part of the, the base we were around. I can't remember where it was. I think it was somewhere near Orange Gate - I came to learn later. And just hung out all day, and met women and talked and there was just this immense, and it was exciting and amazing, and then there were women walking around with walkie talkies. And then I remember us actually getting the call that we had actually all joined up. And we were all holding hands. [[That's the encirclement?|Maggie Parks That's the encirclement?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks That's the encirclement?]]

That’s the encirclement, I think was called Embrace the Base. And, you know, I think it was one of the most thrilling things I'd ever encountered. And, you know, in a very sort of magical way, it was this huge energy circle of women. And I think it was that moment of that energy circling 30,000 women that was so life changing for many of us, even though we had no sort of conscious knowledge of it. I think something extremely amazing and magical, and for me spiritual, I think, happened - although I didn't know it at the time. And I think it was, it was really interesting because as I said, I lost my father, which had been the first death - I was 30 and I hadn't lost anybody close. And I think it was interesting that my sort of feminist path, and my spiritual path coincided with those events, really, because I'd had some very interesting things happen to me. I don't know whether this is really relevant to this story, but it's my story. I'd had some really odd coincidences and magic things all happen to me around the death of my father. And, and I just think I was very open. I was very, you know, on lots of sort of levels. I think I was sort of like, my psyche was very open. I think in some ways, you know, the death of my dad was such a traumatic event I was a bit shattered really. So it felt like, I don't know, it felt like a gift from him. Which is really odd, because the next years were all about challenging patriarchy. And my dad was a real Irish patriarch, in a way. So it was interesting, but it did feel when I looked back retrospectively, of course, at the time you, you don't see all of the connections. But everything for me around Greenham was about connections, and us making connections, and weaving this amazing web of interconnectedness. [[Can you tell me more about the web?|Maggie Parks Can you tell me more about the web?]] [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It's no coincidences that you know that we had loads of webs all over the fence, and that the web became a very magical um, symbol for us, and you probably can't see but behind that there's actually a big... [[Yes I can see it.|Maggie Parks Yes I can see it.]] [[I can see it in my mind..|Maggie Parks Yes I can see it.]] [[A big what?|Maggie Parks Yes I can see it.]] [[Keep listenig quietly..|Maggie Parks Yes I can see it.]]

There’s a big created web, and um I'll show you at some point, we did at our AGM, and interestingly enough, nationally, Rape Crisis England and Wales have called their new digital project, and linking women through digital media and web. There’s the web. They've called it Weaving the Web. So it's interesting how that symbol has sort of, you know, carried on through after 30, how many 36 years? [[Um, more?|Maggie Parks Um, more?]] [[I don't know..|Maggie Parks Um, more?]]

Well, certainly for me, it was ‘82, yeah. So yeah 36 years in December. [[And the webs were woven onto the fence?|Maggie Parks And the webs were woven onto the fence?]] [[Quite a strange concept for the people inside that fence, I wonder?|Maggie Parks Quite a strange concept from the people inside that fence, I wonder?]]

Yeah, lots of, lots of weaving of webs onto the fence. You know, that idea of a web that if something happens over here it actually affects what's going on over here. [[Yes, the vibrations.|Maggie Parks Yes, the vibrations.]] [[Quite a strange concept for the people inside that fence, I wonder?|Maggie Parks Quite a strange concept from the people inside that fence, I wonder?]]

Oh, I think there were lots of strange concepts for those people inside the fence. So I went to the Embrace. And then it was like, I don't know, I've never taken heroin, but it was - my senses, it's probably like your first shot of heroin. It's sort of like, blissed me out. And I just thought, oh, I want more of this. So we stayed. A couple of us stayed from our little affinity group the next day, and um blockade, and then we did a blockade I think the next day so we had the Embrace, and I think it was the next day we tried to blockade all the gates, or I think it was our first time that we tried to blockade all the gates, and again, I just - oh my god, you know again really interesting because I think I had tried to be my daddy's good girl, even though I was a bit of a crazy hippie chick but you know, I'd always wanted to please my dad. And I think I was a little bit in awe of authority and all of that. So I'm sure it wasn't on that first blockade, but I know on future blockades that I was on - I was on many of them - looking up into the face of a police officer who was telling you to move and saying no, was one of the most liberating things I'd ever done, um, you know, to actually be confronted by that real authority figure and say no, was was quite incredible. So that was my journey to Greenham. [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

The vibrations. So um... [[Quite a strange concept for the people inside that fence, I wonder?|Maggie Parks Quite a strange concept from the people inside that fence, I wonder?]] [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Okay, oh, I could probably talk all day. But, um, so, um, so two things happened. One was I couldn't stay away. So I kept driving - so my mum had just been recently widowed, and I was living back at home, so and I didn't want to leave her a lot. So initially, I would just get my car and go down for weekends. And the other thing was that we started a group called Worcester Women for Peace. So the group that we've been together - so we started um, locally building um, women's groups in our own in our own area, but I was also going down - because the singing got in my soul. Songs like ‘You Can't Kill the Spirit’ were just like, you know, they got into sort of every atom of my being, I think. And I think it was the first time because I hadn't - I threw religion out probably when I was about 14, at the same time I declared I was a socialist. So I've never had any sense of deep community - I've never had, you know, never had a religion and I think a lot of people get involved in religion for that sense of belonging to something. So it never really had always been a, you know, like lots of people say they, you know, they were been outsiders and never thought they belonged. But I got this whole sense of purpose and belonging to something that was bigger than me. And bigger than my own ideas, and I'd always wanted to change the world, I think. I think always somewhere in me. I wanted to make a difference in the world but didn't know how, or how I could. And for the first time, I just felt, oh my god, we can change things we can make a difference. And um, our Worcester Women for Peace group met at Quaker meeting house, in Worcester, and some of the Quaker women got involved and I became really close friends with a woman who was in her 80s. And um, she used to come - when I went up and down to Greenham, she'd sometimes come with me, and there was something amazing about that whole intergenerational thing that went on as well. You know, um, so it felt like women from all walks of life came there. And I know again, retrospectively, that you know, it didn't have a great deal of diversity when it came to race, and there was massive criticism of it. Because of that, you know, it was seen as a white middle class movement, but actually, I was very much a working class kid, you know, and there were lots of working class women who did go there. And, you know, and it also became a place of refuge, I think for a lot of women who'd got mental health issues, women who were homeless - which could cause problems at times, but actually it it was incredibly inclusive in that way. [[What sort of problems?|Maggie Parks What sort of problems?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

Oh, there was rows, there were lots of rows at Greenham. So people didn't, people didn't always get to see the rows. There were money rows, we would have money meetings and there were lots of rows about money. And of course, as it started to really (be in) the media and the camp started growing up at every gate, you know, there was a lot of stuff brought to that camp. You know, people like Linda McCartney came and you know brought Harrods’ food baskets and donated. So you know that it, so, so while there was amazing stuff going on, there were also some issues - and of course later on we also knew that we'd been infiltrated by you know, undercover, you know, cops. I mean, there were, you know, and I think, you know, the Guardian have been doing quite a few articles recently about all, you know, all the undercover police officers that have had relationships with women. And, um, you know, the, they put out whole lists of where, because there's been inquiry and there were definitely undercover people there at Greenham, and so there was some distrust going, and that was, you know, so, so like any community, you know, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't an ideal utopia. It was, you know that first winter I went there, you know, in the January. Now I lived there for weeks and weeks at a time. And that's that winter, that first winter I lived there quite a lot of the time and it was cold and it was hard, um, you know, gathering wood and but it was, it was also pretty amazing. Um, so, yes, so there were lots of so it was hard, but it was inspirational and it was, you know, I really do believe it was a sort of like an open university for women. I remember sitting around some of the fires and just hearing ideas and concepts that I'd never heard before. I mean, it just completely opened me up to so many things. And I started off at what that first was called Main Gate and then turned into Yellow Gate, because then all the gates got colours. [[Yeah..|Maggie Parks Yeah..]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Yeah..]]

And I spent a lot of my time at Green Gate then, which was in the woods. And it's sort of seen as the, the fluffy gate, really the sort of spiritual gate, it was right in the middle of the woods, and it became a bit witchy. And so um, that was where I spent a lot of my time. And it was, as I say, it was just this amazing thing where women from all over came together. And then it became international, you know, and I made a number of making friends with an amazing woman called Zol de Hyster, who was doing some amazing work about, um, you know, the nuclear bombing in the South Pacific and what was happening to people over there. So it became not just a sort of - it was an international movement. And we were starting to make connections with women all over the world, and women were coming from America and Australia. And um, yeah, so it was, yeah, it was just quite incredible, really. And um, so I'm trying to think, I suppose, for the next. So that was ‘83-‘84 - those two years, I probably spent not maybe quite as much as 50% of my time, but certainly I would say 30/35% of my time there and being involved in actions. And yeah, and being involved in, in other - so, so that was that happening at Greenham, but then, you know we did a big, I think, was the second action called Carry Greenham Home, and we did a big again, I remember - I can’t remember the name of the singer who sang the song ‘Carry Greenham Home’, and we made a big dragon and we carried the dragon all the way around the base. And um, so there was the idea that we would carry Greenham home, so that it wasn't just what was going on on the base, but what we were doing locally. So our.. so we then moved from, from Worcester Women for Peace was still going, but then in Malvern, which was my hometown, we set up what was called a Woman for Life on Earth group. And we had another group of women there. And that was really quite a large group. No, we must have had about - I say large, 30/40 women for a small town, and we did quite a lot of actions - there we closed roads. I remember getting a huge great big globe - I don’t know where we we rented it from, and pushing it up the road, up the roads that would be closed if cruise missiles were on. We had lots of awareness. We did loads of workshops, we showed lots of films, we put on - and then the miners’ strike happened, and we had all the miners’ wives come, and they were involved. And we were putting on a concert in aid of the miners’ wives. So there was this massive sort of political ferment going on, not just at Greenham, but you know, everywhere. And I know, I obviously I wasn't in Cornwall, but you know, I've heard that women, you know, had the camps there and there were groups down there, and there were groups everywhere. I remember going to a peace conference in Nottingham. Um, so there were women centres, there was, you know, there was just so much political activity for women. And yeah it was just absolutely life changing really. And I was living on benefits because those were the days when you could, and being very politically active - thank you very much, living on benefits. And that was the first time I hadn't worked - because I'd worked from when I was about 13. So that was a liberation in itself, actually. So it was really interesting. [[What else happened to you in those years?|Maggie Parks What else happened to you in those years?]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

So um, what else happened to me in those years? And what happened to Greenham women? So I got pregnant in February 1985. And that was a bit life changing for me. Um, my partner Phil, who I'm still with after 36 years. We weren’t living together. And we didn't live together until we moved to Cornwall and our little boy was six. But um yeah. So I got pregnant and that that sort of changed things for me really because I didn't want to be putting my body on the line, although I do remember we in Malvern we had a big base. It was called RSRE - the Royal Radar Establishment, which was a big, quite a big military base that had quite a big military presence. So we used to do lots of actions there. And I do remember being about five months pregnant and being on a, some sort of blockade at the gates and somebody trying to manhandle me and I thought, no, I'm not, I can't do this anymore. I just really can't. But also what happened in those, those years before I got pregnant - apart from everything I'd ever thought or believed was turned upside down and inside out really - and understanding patriarchy and understanding what patriarchy did, and still continues to do, and understanding the power and control it had. And I think I'd always understood power and the misuse of power in, you know, social and economic ways, political ways, but I hadn't quite understood um, that it was also in spiritual ways, and that as women, our you know, our spirituality had been corralled as well as our creativity. And so it was interesting, so so in those years, I met lots of amazing women and I met a lot of amazing women artists, and I came, became very close friends with a woman called Monica Sjoo, who wrote, had written a book called The Great Cosmic Mother Of All, but she's amazing artist. And um, and, you know, her work is she was Swedish woman and her work - her books are taught in universities now, but her paintings are iconic. And she, she painted an iconic image called God Giving Birth, which is - look it up if you've never seen it, Google it, and it's a black woman standing out in the universe, you know, with a baby's head coming out from between her legs. [[And it challenged established ideas?|Maggie Parks And it challenged established ideas?]] [[Green Gate, in the wood, sounds kind of almost womb-like. I was wondering whetheryou got to interact with women from other gates?|Maggie Parks Green Gate, in the woods, did you? Because that sounds kind of almost womb-like and I was wondering whether you actually got to interact with women from other gates?]]

It really did challenge establish ideas that God was not some white male who was out there. And so, you know, so I got into, you know, women's spirit and women's magic in quite a big way. And, you know, we had, you know, yeah, so there was a lot, there was quite a lot of magic going on at Greenham really, which was very interesting. And I think a lot of us.. and I started getting interested in women's history, you know, and realising that, you know, history didn't start 2000 years ago, it, you know, started thousands and thousands of years ago and that women had been seen as the creators of life until, you know, the patriarchy came. And um, so, yeah, so. So, some really, really profound things. And um just meeting some of the, I think, some of the most amazing women in the world that massively influence me, and influence my thinking. And um so, you know, so when I had Jem I had a, you know, although I was older, I had a home birth and it was very magical, and I decided I was going to home educate him. I didn't want to put him into the hands of the patriarchy, and he's um, he’s 33 now and working for the man in the City of London, but he's a wonderful feminist. [[Green Gate, in the wood, sounds kind of almost womb-like. I was wondering whether you got to interact with women from other gates?|Maggie Parks Green Gate, in the woods, did you? Because that sounds kind of almost womb-like and I was wondering whether you actually got to interact with women from other gates?]] [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

''"CARRY GREENHAM HOME" by Peggy Seeger.'' Hand in hand, the line extends All around the nine-mile fence, Thirty-thousand women chant, Bring the message home. Chorus: Carry Greenham home, yes, Nearer home and far away, Carry Greenham home. Singing voices, rising higher, Weave a dove into the wire, In our hearts a blazing fire, Bring the message home. (chorus) Here we sit, here we stand, Here we claim the common land; Nuclear arms shall not command, Bring the message home. (chorus) Singing voices, sing again, To the children, to the men, From the Channel to the glens, Bring the message home. (chorus) Not the nightmare, not the scream, Just the loving human dream Of peace, the ever flowing stream, Bring the message home. (chorus) Woman tiger, woman dove, Help to save the world we love, Velvet fist in iron glove, Bring the message home. (chorus) [[Sing another song.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]] [[Speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]] <audio src="https://scarylittlegirls.co.uk/campfire/Peggy-Seeger-Live-Carry-Greenham-Home.mp3" autoplay>

Well, it's really interesting because I don't think that's really changed in the women's movement in some ways. You know, I've been in the women's movement since then. And as you can see, I'm a chief executive for Women's Centre now. So, you know, for me, feminism is about inclusivity. And it's about you know, that whole idea of different therefore equal. And so I suppose I probably was in fairyland! So I don't know. So I had relationships with women when I was Greenham, which was sort of a first for me, and I suppose, made me understand my own bisexuality, although I've been in the you know, long term monogamous, monogamous relationship for 36 years now, but, you know, what did I think? I just thought that that was those women's choices and I didn't, I suppose for me, the whole thing about Greenham was about this amazing mesh of ideas, and I never felt any pressure from anybody at Greenham - and maybe it's about my personality - to be anything other than I wanted to be. I didn't feel like I had to challenge another what woman's way of living and I, you know, a lot of my friends made political choices to become lesbians. And that was a very interesting idea. And one that I completely understood and empathised with, you know, so I didn't, so I, I completely got that and I didn't I suppose I, honestly, I don't know that I saw that as hardline. [[Okay.|Maggie Parks Okay.]] [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I just saw that as choices that women make. And I think that's how I feel now. And I think one of the reasons we're really successful Women’s Centre is that we have an inclusivity around that as well. So I think, so I didn't - it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. So that isn't how I, I perceive that. [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, we did all of that. Yes, of course. I think it was interesting how the gates developed over the years. You know, like, I think it was Blue Gate - that was where was all the young punky, young women hung out there, and I was past being young and punky, but I think we all came together, and we would all go around and visit each other's gates, and I remember us you know, putting things on at Green Gate and women from other gates would come - so I don't think we became sort of like exclusive territories, and actually I think I've got - a fact the time I got most hurt was actually when we blockaded um Green Gate. And I remember you know, a copper coming and literally lifting me up and throwing me, and I've actually got a photograph on Peace News - which I've been trying to get up in the loft and find of me on a blockade there. So we still blockaded together and we still so so it was quite womb like, it was just that each gate had sort of different energies, I think. But you know, there were there was lots of, other lots of discussions and lots of arguments, you know, when everybody you know, took against calling Yellow Gate, Main Gate and all of that. [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Oh, getting up late (laughs), maybe? No, I don't know what’s late? 9 o'clock / 10 o'clock, having cups of tea sitting, around. Um, visitors coming, talking to visitors going off ‘wooding’, getting lots of wood for the fire, going off into the woods going and getting water. Um, sometimes going to the shop, sometimes going into the swimming pool to take a shower. [[How did the locals respond to you when you interacted like that?|Maggie Parks How did the locals respond to you when you interacted like that?]] [[Did the locals mind?|Maggie Parks How did the locals respond to you when you interacted like that?]]

Well it was it was different in it changed over the years. So at the beginning, lots of locals were very helpful. And there were local women who let you use their houses for showers and those sorts of things. Later on it got, it, I don't know it because I think, I don't know. I remember going into the pubs, local pubs and stuff. It it got more difficult. And I remember with the local oh, it wasn't a McDonald's. What's that chain of stuff that's - I still have some now. [[Wimpy?|Maggie Parks Wimpy?]] [[Little Chef?|Maggie Parks Little Chef?]]

Not Wimpy. Oh, it's one of those travellers’ rest places. [[Little Chef?|Maggie Parks Little Chef?]] [[I dont know..|Maggie Parks Little Chef?]]

Little Chef - Little Chef banned women from going in there - going and sitting and have a cup of tea, and just sit. So it's, yeah, so you know and at night people would come and drum around the fire, and we’d sing, and we’d drum, and we’d dance, and we'd read books and someone might read poetry to each other. And um, so it was just a I don’t know - the days all melded, it was just amazing. I'd never lived out in nature before. So, you know, that was the most incredible thing to be, you know, and that was part of, you know, I think, the spiritual awareness, there was your real interconnectedness with nature, you know, literally living collectively, um, you know, together on the land, and of course, our periods started to sync and we got into moon magic and all of that stuff. So celebrated the moons and, you know, did body painting. I mean, just crazy. You know, it was a really creative and intellectual ferment, um so it, yeah, it was just incredible. And then, as I say, I just think around all of that, in local towns, there was a lot of creativity, and we got - our group got involved in - so there's a Women for Life on Earth magazine, and our group got involved in editing a couple of issues of that. Then the meantime I'd met a woman called Vron McIntyre in Nottingham, I think I'd gone up to a peace conference - a women's peace conference in Nottingham, and I met this amazing woman in a women's spirituality workshop called Vron and we became very close friends. And that must have been about 1985 because I think I was just pregnant when I met Vron, and she came to live in Malvern. And then we started organising conferences in Malvern. So we had a women's peace conference. We had an angry women's conference, which Clare Short came to, we had an challenging new age patriarchy conference. So doing lots of things and out, of so as, as the sort of ‘80s wore on, and I had a little one and I didn't really want to take him down there, I withdrew more and more and more from Greenham. I still think I went down for a couple of big actions, but my life changed, although it still stayed incredibly women focused. And two things happened. One was we had a Women for Life on Earth meeting in about 1987 at my flat - can I remember, there was 17 women in that room. And we suddenly started talking about childhood sexual abuse. And out of those 17 women, 12 women had either experienced childhood sexual abuse, rape or domestic violence. And it was out of that group that Women for Life on Earth group, that we started Worcester Rape Crisis Centre. So that was my move into working around violence against women. And, you know, that was up, for me that was directly influenced by everything I'd learned at Greenham, and about all the power structures, you know, that that violence against women is a cause and a consequence, you know, of inequality. And um so that was so that was interesting. So I then started getting involved in setting up a Rape Crisis Centre in Worcester, which, you know, ended up being a part time coordinator of later on. But also Vron I also started a women's writing magazine. I brought a few copies in called From the Flames. And we had been very interested - there was a women's writing journal called Woman Spirit, that two women in America - on the west coast of America had edited for 10 years. And in 1989, they'd done a 10 year cycle, and they decided to stop and we said, oh, we're gonna miss it so much, and Vron said ‘Why don't we start our own?’ And so, again, out of Greenham, so we started From the Flames, which was a women's writing journal, and so we had lots of, so again, all based, and I can... so a lot of it was based... so...so as you can see like lots of poetry book reviews. So really women were really beginning to understand that how important myth and symbol was to them and how all our myths have been turned against us, and how all our symbols have been appropriated by the patriarchy and we started...So this was the days before computers really... [[It sounds as if where you were really attuned, on the spiritual, mystical level..|Maggie Parks it sounds as if where you were really attuned to it, was on the more primitive to spiritual, mystical level.]] [[Sing a song for unity and morale.|Fire 2 Sing a Song for unity and morale.]]

But also intellectual, because I actually I read more than I'd ever read in my life, and read academic books that I had never - so I read books on anthropology I read, you know, I read books like Gynecology by Mary Daly. I, I've read quite academic books and you know, one of the things Vron and I were very clear about was that actually as women we needed to - while we were doing all of this stuff, we really needed to value our intellects as women as well and not, not let that go - that that was really important, our our political and intellectual understanding of what had been done to us - you know, and that they’d burnt millions of us as witches, you know, you know, the uncovering of women's her-story was was really important to really understand the mythologies that had been turned against us, and you know, to rediscover our symbols. So, so for me it was it was a real melding of mind, body, spirit, that it was, you know, for, you know that so the excitement for me was about finding community. It was about finding like-minded women, but it was also, you know, this massive excitement of ideas and intellectual philosophies, you know, because I think, you know, feminism is so exciting because it is ever changing. You know, it is moving, you know, we called it the women's movement, but actually, it's women's movement. And it's been fascinating being in feminism for so long and seeing so many changes. So for me, there was this going on, which was our spirituality, our politics, our lives, and it was interesting how it changed. So this changed from being a quarterly journal - Radical Feminist Spirituality Magic and the Goddess, and I think later on, we called it Radical Feminism with Spirit, because we felt that it all started. So there was a very interesting change that happened. [[Yes.|Maggie Parks Yes.]] [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

I think is that when Thatcher said there was no such thing as society, it was really interesting. Because what what we found happened, as we went through the years of being profoundly political, that this - this spirituality wasn't separate from our politics, it was our politics. And I think that is really important to understand. But I think what happened was that a lot of women who became - um, who found some spirituality, you know, and often Wicca and nature based, but found spirituality through feminism and then started - I think two things happen - then started to get into all sorts of healing, so doing crystal healing and, and yoga and hands on stuff... [[Reiki?|Maggie Parks Reiki?]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Reiki2]]

Reiki, and, and all of those things. [[Interesting..|Maggie Parks Reiki2]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Reiki2]]

And at the same time started to somehow disconnect from the collective into the individual and started to lose their feminism and that collective action. And that's one of the things we talk about a lot in From the Flames was almost how the spiritual journey became the important one, and individual, and women - so where we'd been at Greenham and women would massage each other, and give each other reflexology, and Indian Head massages and all of that suddenly, women we're all becoming counsellors and therapists, and crystal healers and charging for it. And it felt - and I think that happened a bit when Thatcher started cutting benefits and people were having to go out and work. So it was very interesting. [[Yes.|Maggie Parks Yes2]] [[Do you think things got monetised?|Maggie Parks So it got monetised.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks Yes2]]

Very interesting what, happened and I think that was a dissipation away from the political and into individualised, um ways of being. And I suppose - so the reason I stayed I think in the Violence Against Women and Girls movement in the broad movement was for me, it was still about collective action. And it was also actually quite academic and intellectual, and academia was informing practice and practice was informing academia. And I really liked that - I didn't want to just disappear into my own navel, really, because my spirituality had always been my energy for political action. [[Do you think things got monetised?|Maggie Parks So it got monetised.]] [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

Yes. And I think everything got monetised, including our spirituality. And I think I was very blessed in that, you know, I started working for Worcester Rape Crisis Centre. And, you know, as I say, I think violence against women, you know, was still very feminist as it is now. And um then I moved down here - Autumn 1991. I moved down here at the beginning of ‘92. And my partner Phil got a job running St Austell Arts Centre, which is why we came down and we decided to live together, which was a bit radical for us! You know, I was never gonna be in a nuclear family and then Jem was six, and he said ‘Oh, can’t we live together?’. So we did the opposite of everybody else who split up when their kid’s 6, we moved in together, which is really quite interesting. And I was coming down here - we just really started From the Flames. I was going to come, I was going to write, I was going to walk the moors, I was going to learn to paint, and be very creative. And after about, oh, I don't know, less than a year probably, um I started getting very bored. I also thought that I would find radical feminists everywhere I went and I didn't really. [[No, no.|Maggie Parks No, no.]] [[No?|Maggie Parks No, no.]]

So I thought, you know, I thought this movement I just thought, you know all there'll be loads of them down in Cornwall. Because there’d been some women's land - when we were at Greenham - here'd been some women's land near Penzance - an American a woman had owned, and I think had come down once she had it as a retreat. So I just thought oh god there’ll be loads of feminists. And, and I, so I wasn't meeting people, and it was a strange experience for me. I'm going off now, but... [[But it's about like minded people, people that you...|Maggie Parks But it's about like minded people, people that you...]] [[The expectation was that you'd...|Maggie Parks The expectation was that you'd...]]

Absolutely. [[You thought that you’d find the same kind of energy in Cornwall, and, no?|Maggie Parks that you’d find the same kind of energy in Cornwall, and, no.]] [[The expectation was that you'd...|Maggie Parks The expectation was that you'd...]]

I thought Greenham women were everywhere! [[But it's about like minded people, people that you...|Maggie Parks But it's about like minded people, people that you...]] [[You thought that you’d find the same kind of energy in Cornwall, and, no?|Maggie Parks that you’d find the same kind of energy in Cornwall, and, no.]]

It really wasn't here. [[Quite shocking sometimes?|Maggie Parks Quite shocking sometimes?]] [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]

It was, it still sort of shocks me really. And, of course, I was travelling up to Nottingham to produce From the Flames. And so was very linked in to a community of women that were ex-Greenham, and at the same time we were also running Spiral Women's Camps. Has anyone talked to you about Spiral Women's Camps? [[I don't think they have.|Maggie Parks I don't think they have.]] [[Yes, they have.|Maggie Parks I don't think they have.]]

Okay, so well, they came out of Greenham women who had, I suppose, in some ways, maybe disconnected from Greenham, which started becoming a different entity and felt like it had a hierarchy of women who'd been there a long time and it didn't feel like it was ours anymore, but wanted to be out on the land with other women. So once or twice a year there were groups of us - and a lot of them were connected through From the Flames, had Spiral Camps. So we had some Spiral Camps in Wales, Yorkshire, primarily in Shepton Mallet quite near where the Glastonbury site, and literally we'd rent three or four fields, and women would come with tents. We’d have some taps, and we’d create this village of amazingness and creativity and we put on theatre and have workshops, and, and lived on the land for a couple of, couple of weeks at a time. So, so Spiral Camps came out of that. So we're all quite busy and From the Flames and then um, I um, I saw a poster - I'd been down here about a year I think - I saw a poster saying that a helpline for rape and sexual abuse survivors was closing and that they wanted more women involved, and that was down in Redruth, I think. So I thought I'd go to the meeting. I'd gotten involved with another organisation around learning disability. But it wasn't quite, I hadn't, I hadn't found the women and the women I met through the art scene with Phil - because he was running the Arts Centre and putting on dance and theatre, just again, I just, you know, and I was, for the first time in my life I was seen as Phil's partner, which was an extraordinary thing for me when I'd been this big, strong, independent woman. So um, so I went to that meeting, and I met a woman there called Val, who I walked in, and we just clicked and she’d got dreads, and she was a wild woman, and she'd been to Greenham. And she'd read Mary Daly. And so we did just bllllllllum (fast chatting noise). And so what happened was that that other helpline sort of finished, and so Val and I become friends. She was doing an MA in women's studies, she took me to meet a whole group of women who were doing the Plymouth MA in women's studies, and round a kitchen table once again we set up the Women's Rape and Sexual Abuse Centre, which the Women's Centre morphed from, um not last year, but the year before, no, 20th March 2018, we turned from being the Women's Rape and Sexual Abuse Centre into the Women's Centre. So Val and I sort of were the founding members of the Women's Rape and Sexual Abuse Centre. And we've held that spirit of Greenham here, you know, not not massively overtly.. [[No but it's there.|Maggie Parks No but it's there.]] [[Keep listening quietly..|Maggie Parks No but it's there.]]

But that energy is still here. And those ideas, and that idea of radical feminism, you know, and eco-feminism, the sort of melding of eco-feminism and radical feminism, I think, really is at the heart of the organisation. Although as I say, we're really a very inclusive lot. So you know, you don't have to be, you know, you don't have to say you're a radical feminist to become part of us. But we, you know, everyone who works for us goes through the same training, which does have an element of you know, you know, fairly heartfelt radical feminism at its centre. So, it feels for me that, you know, I mean, if I showed you around, you'd see lots of creative stuff here. And a lot of the work we do with women is very creative. So, you know, we do have a lot of art groups, our young women's group is all around art and writing and creating. Um we, we do body therapies here, so we do lots of alternative therapies and also, you know, we take women out in nature, we've got a walking group, so women who've been abused, you know, have got, we don't just do talking therapies. And, and so really, you know, I, I really do believe that that day in December 1982 - that energy is still held here in this little place in Cornwall, via little nucleus of women who you know carried Greenham home and you know still carry them in their heart really. [[Thank Maggie Parks, and speak with another woman around the campfire|Campfire]]